#: 3209 S15/Hot Topics 01-May-90 12:01:18 Sb: #3196-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, For the best price on a 2 meg upgrade, you can look around now in Computer Shopper. Look for SIMMs, 1 meg by 8. These are the same SIMMS used in the Mac ii series, so they'll remain pretty inexpensive. It was one of our design goals to use a lot of standard parts. The more standard a part is, the more reliable and cheaper it is. Hence, you can have a full >>3<< meg system for far less than you would think. BTW, we showed the MM/1 at a special meeting of folks from a Charlotte NC computer club -- we could have sold quite a few of 'em! We had a great time, and look forware to meeting with Color Computer users up and down the east coast. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3214 S15/Hot Topics 01-May-90 20:54:11 Sb: #3209-That Darn Computer! Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, When is the info on the new system gonna hit the mail? I'm still waiting for some publisihed details to drool over. Did you miss my name on the list? Steve #: 3221 S15/Hot Topics 02-May-90 11:07:06 Sb: #Smoke Signal Fm: DOUG 72667,1433 To: all Hey, did SSB go belly-up, move or just don't want to be found anymore? D There is 1 Reply. #: 3228 S15/Hot Topics 02-May-90 17:10:54 Sb: #3221-Smoke Signal Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: DOUG 72667,1433 Doug - I believe SSB is still up here in Westlake Village, CA. Their building is supposed to be right behind mine, but I have never been over there. Try 1-(818)-555-1212 and ask information if they are listed.... Pete #: 3242 S15/Hot Topics 03-May-90 10:26:29 Sb: #3228-#Smoke Signal Fm: DOUG 72667,1433 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete, Did that. I first called the number (9460?) on their manual cover and at first didn't get an answer. Tried a day or two later and got a rather unfriendly guy at a Nautilus place. The 818 and 808 operators show no listing for Smoke. Doug There is 1 Reply. #: 3249 S15/Hot Topics 03-May-90 20:35:33 Sb: #3242-#Smoke Signal Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: DOUG 72667,1433 (X) Doug - Well ... I guesss that perhaps they _have_ gone up in (ulp) smoke... Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 3378 S15/Hot Topics 09-May-90 10:07:42 Sb: #3249-Smoke Signal Fm: DOUG 72667,1433 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 Cud be... Doug #: 3312 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 17:22:08 Sb: #2987-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) OK Kev, thanks for the list. I'll save it for any Amigoids I run into. Hmmm, I wouldn't want Tandy's Coco3 port of OS9 running heart, tho maybe my large intestine would be OK....mike k #: 3314 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 17:25:13 Sb: #3006-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Thanks for more ammo, Kev. Or a motorcycle, 2 new windsurfers, or a month's supply of cat food (or some people, grin). #: 3317 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 17:31:36 Sb: #3051-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Well, I need M.Tasking and grafix both, which so far is Amiga, period. And Kev's comparison charts show how that works out -- the "rich man" can't even get some of MM1's features on his Amy. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 3371 S15/Hot Topics 08-May-90 22:19:21 Sb: #3317-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Michael, There is an Amiga "public domain" set of C libraries for MIDI. I believe they are available from Pregnant Badger Music, 916/361-8217. Might be worth calling them to see if you can get a copy. Let me know if it turns out. If the libs are NOT pd, give me a call. Paul #: 3316 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 17:29:57 Sb: #3050-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Well, I've been itching to put in some Dixie band arrangements, tho probably wouldn't make it down to any other Fests. Schaumburg is a lily-white suburb whose idea of jazz is the Beach Boys and classicaly music is Andy Williams. Just kidding... Still amused that your day job is a night job, grin. There is 1 Reply. #: 3370 S15/Hot Topics 08-May-90 22:17:11 Sb: #3316-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 The greatest thing is that I actually make a decent living at night and work during the day cutting major MM/1 deals. BTW, it's almost time for a couple of press announcement -- cool deals that everyone will be interested in! Support for this computer is STREAMING in!!! Paul #: 3315 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 17:27:27 Sb: #3022-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 Yes, I agree,a and that's why the date has been set back. I've been in favor of getting out a usable port of OSK with a basic windowing interface equivalent to the Coco3's, and let's leave the resizable, overlapping, water-into-wine stuff for later. Or to put it another way, I hope Kev and friends put in just enuf in the first release of OSK to support the applications we want. #: 3334 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 21:12:41 Sb: #2406-#Tomcat Computer Fm: Immanuel Freedman 76670,1737 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Will the TC run the new OS-9000 from MicroWare ( with DOS emulation) ? Please add me to the mailing list - your fine products are appreciated. Dr. Immanuel Freedman 9121 Springhill Lane #202 Greenbelt MD 20770 There is 1 Reply. #: 3339 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 22:13:33 Sb: #3334-Tomcat Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Immanuel Freedman 76670,1737 (X) Yes the TC is capible of running the 680x0 version of OS9000. DOS emulation is only available for OS9000 running on a 386. I will put you on the mailing list and send you out a brochure. Thanks Frank #: 3337 S15/Hot Topics 06-May-90 21:31:06 Sb: CD-I / Amiga Mag Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all In the May issue of Amazing Computing / Amiga, (with the A3000 on the cover) is a rumor column, which also just happens to talk about CD-I (and mention OS-9) for several paragraphs. The context is this: rumors have been around for a while that Commodore is thinking about a CDROM machine based around the Amiga chips. Actually when I first heard those rumors, I figured they were gonna be another CD-I machine maker, like a lot of companies. But Amiga mags keep saying that no, it'll use the Amiga chips... which makes it less powerful graphically than a true CD-I box, of course. Still, interesting reading. #: 3377 S15/Hot Topics 09-May-90 02:36:47 Sb: CD-I Based Museum! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all from NewsGrid: WASHINGTON (MAY 8) BUSINESS WIRE - Capitol Disc Interactive and Philips Mexicana, S.A. de C.V., Tuesday announced the development of a Compact Disc-Interactive (CD-I) system for multimedia point-of-information displays in the Museo Amparo Puebla, a museum dedicated to indigenous Mexican history being constructed in Puebla, Mexico. Museo Amparo, the first museum in the world to incorporate Compact Disc-Interactive technology in its design, will utilize twenty-eight CD-I kiosks throughout the building. Each disc will contain language tracks in Spanish, English, French and Japanese. As Amparo visitors move from room to room, they will plug headsets into the kiosks and, through Philips 20" touch screen television monitors, they can learn at their own pace about the historic context of the display room's treasures. A moving "time-line" will provide the foundation for understanding the age and context of the displayed objects through comparisons with developments in other ancient civilizations. Through CD-I, games and tasks of ancient civilizations will involve the viewers in the ancient cultures. #: 3393 S15/Hot Topics 10-May-90 05:51:08 Sb: #OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Paul Ward 73477,2004 Paul, I heard a rumor yesterday (not from anyone in Raleigh, either..grin) that you folks at Kenneth-Leigh Ent. are now considering the Uniflex operating system (whether it's an AND/OR with OS9, I don't know) for the MM/1 computer. I would hope we'll see the OS9 Operating system on the MM/1.... Care to comment???? Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 3408 S15/Hot Topics 10-May-90 21:11:00 Sb: #3393-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Just a note to say TSC became UniFlex Ltd or some such, and are pushing their new software with gusto. There's probably all sorts of deals being made. Their goal being to become "The" 68k Operating System. They're still priced out of my range though. Probably got some good bulk discounts though. There are 2 Replies. #: 3410 S15/Hot Topics 10-May-90 22:46:15 Sb: #3408-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 Steve, Well...what I heard is just a rumor. And a surprising one. I thought (due to the message traffic, etc.) that the MM/1 had OS9 locked in....but lord knows what this latest rumor is all about. Dan #: 3415 S15/Hot Topics 11-May-90 01:43:09 Sb: #3408-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 Steve - interesting thing is, the MM/1 has the hardware needed for running UniFlex. And yeah, they may be getting smarter, price-wise. You can't become "the 68K operating system" by charging as much as they normally do . As another sidenote, GEM is also available for 68070/VSC systems. No idea what their prices are like tho. #: 3433 S15/Hot Topics 12-May-90 16:02:27 Sb: #3393-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Dan, Well, the best response here is no response. I WILL say that UniFlex is interested and that we talk. Kenneth-Leigh Enterprises and Interactive Media Systems have spent tens of thousands of dollars already. We will spend half a million before the year is out. That means that our choice of the operating system depends on two factors: timing, and what our markets need. UniFlex is EXTREMELY UNIX-like, even more so than OS-9. THis is sure to win over our education market, although OS9 could be made to work nicely, too. Also, UniFlex is real-time, making it logical for the data acquisition folks. Of course, I want OS-9 on the MM/1, too. But timing and the market drive us. We'll use a system that makes sense for the market, and work with the company that makes sense to us. BTW, you didn't mention that Minix may soon be available on the MM/1? Not that >I< want to be starting rumors! Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 3434 S15/Hot Topics 12-May-90 16:41:35 Sb: #3433-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Dan, Part of that message got garbled -- strangeness at CIS! What was not printed was: OS-9 could also do extremely well in the education market, although I think it would be a somewhat harder sell. Also, with UniFlex being real-time, the data acquisition folks that we have targeted could do their work nicely. Over the years, UniFLex has kept up with changes in Unix, even to the point that they are FIPS (Federal Processing Standard) compatible and have NFS and so on. Very nice. Still, Microware seems to be getting some good stuff over, too. I don't want to give anyone the impression that Microware is being excluded. Just that we are committing ourselves to the OS vendor that commits to us -and we have a good relationship with Microware and UniFlex. Paul There are 3 Replies. #: 3440 S15/Hot Topics 12-May-90 23:34:18 Sb: #3434-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: John Dickey 76537,2631 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Two quick things... One, Have not yet received any info (other than here on the sig) of the MM/1 from KLE. Address to send to is... John Dickey Jr. Susquehanna QBS 325 N. Pine St. Lancaster, PA 17603 Two, The MM/1 without OS9 would hold no interest to us at Susquehanna... Maybe I'm coming into this conversation at mid-point but the gist of what I'm reading sure isn't re-assuring. Understand market, etc. but I thought that since Phillips (et al) had [chosen?] OS9 that the machine you were bringing out would have it as the OS? Would appreciate any comment you would have that would straighten out any mis-understanding on my part. Thanks for your time and in getting out a brochure/info on the MM/1 to us. John There is 1 Reply. #: 3443 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 06:10:01 Sb: #3440-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: John Dickey 76537,2631 (X) John, Thanks for the address -- I'll need to check to see if you were on the list for the second mailing (going out this week). The first mailing went out around the Fest (over 800 pieces) and this one is at least as big. We've had a really tough time keeping up with the demand. About OS-9 on the MM/1 -- by no means are we excluding it. Remember what happened to us with Tandy -- we were dealing with a company that seemed mute. Microware and UniFLex (one more than the other) have been communicating with us well, making us hopeful that if one or both operating systems is included we as a community will have a forthcoming and involved OS vendor to by (oops, "be") a partner. Does that make sense to you? Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 3449 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 10:34:30 Sb: #3443-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I HATE Unix! [Just an opinion] BTW Paul, is there any chance of a CHEAP high level programming language being made available (i.e. BASIC09 for $25?). And one more thing. How soon before you will start announcing prices, software support, etc? The suspense is killing me. -Colin There are 2 Replies. #: 3460 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 14:49:00 Sb: #3449-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Then you'll hate OS-9 - it's billed as Unix-Like. :-) Cheap and 68K parts are two words that don't go together. If you want a cheap basic, go buy an used Apple II+... :-) There is 1 Reply. #: 3550 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 00:34:51 Sb: #3460-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 (X) No, I actually like OS-9. I just hate UNIX. What are the differences? How about DEL vs RM, DIR vs LS, LIST vs CAT etc... --Colin KB5BSH There is 1 Reply. #: 3557 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 16:07:27 Sb: #3550-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (not standing up for UN*X, mind you, I'm a VMS person at work, and an OS9er at home, but) UN*X does have an alias command so you can make your user interface to be anything you like. And UN*X does emply command line parameters and switches just like OS9 does. First thing I did when we got an Ultrix (DEC's flavor of UNIX) box was to go set up personal aliass for all the common commands to be like VMS! Zack Oh, Tim Koonce ported alias to OS9, so if you DO like UNIX, you can make your CoCo seem like it is running UNIX and not OS9! #: 3507 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 10:00:32 Sb: #3449-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, The current plan is to include a high level language in the base case system, and to include ANOTHER high level language in the second board package, making a full system come with TWO languages. Plus, we will be selling a language currently selling extremely well on MS-DOS machines. Pricing? Will let you know the REAL price in about a month. We have found that certain items are costing less, others more. We want to find a price that gives you guys a break but also allows us to hire FULL TIME PROGRAMMERS to crank out cool stuff. Incidentally, we already have several people from Atari, Amiga, and PC domains itching to get a system. Looks like the application support, esp. on the multimedia side, will be outrageous. I hate UNIX too, because it has made itself inconsistent and quirky at the Shell level which is where I spend most of my time. I am sorry, but I like the OS-9 convention of keeping executables together, instead of littering them all about. I mean, why have /usr, /bin, /misc, and so on? But I'm just being a stick in the mud. UNIX will be on five times as many desktops in two years as it is now. And if you look into Personal Computing Magazine this month, you'll see that MS-DOS is going LOSE about 20% market share. Looks like Tandy dropped the CoCo just in time to devote itself entirely to a fading market! Paul There are 3 Replies. #: 3533 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 18:45:05 Sb: #3507-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 What about Rexx? I'm not familiar (yet) with OS/9, but I think it'd be A Very, Very, Good Thing to have an implementation of Rexx available for the MM/1 (maybe talk with William Hawes?). It's a fairly high-level language, and since the MM/1 _is_ multiuser and multitasking, having it on the machine from the git-go would give yet another slight 'edge' (plus, there are a lot of ARexx scripts out there already that I'm sure could be adapted quickly and easily.) You said something about hiring FULL TIME PROGRAMMERS to crank out cool stuff... I'd be interested in seeing a list of what you have 3rd parties already working on (like paint programs, animation prorams, etc), and another list of what applications you'd need full time prorammers for rather than farming it out (85% curiosity :). --Eet-- (An Itchy Amiga Person :) #: 3544 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:21:20 Sb: #3507-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, I hope that "popular MSDOS language" is not Pascal -- I'd hate to pay one extra penny for my 2nd board to get that crippled dinosaur. Just send my Pascal diskette blank, save me the trouble of reformatting it. All I want is C, and maybe Basic for "shell scripts." UNIX has very powerful Shell programming language, but I hope I never figure out how to use it. At work we have 25-year-old clerks to devote their lives to its arcane syntax. "Inconsistent" is being very nice of you. --mike k #: 3551 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 00:37:17 Sb: #3507-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Awww, too bad for Tandy. Anyway, I need the rest of the summer to save up some more dough. I hope you're happy; you're going to take all my money!! -Colin #: 3471 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 21:08:14 Sb: #3443-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: John Dickey 76537,2631 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Thanks for the quick reply. It makes a lot of sense to me, and seeing the qualification puts my mind at ease. Thanks for the reply and in advance for the info on the MM1. Looking forward to seeing it. John #: 3499 S15/Hot Topics 14-May-90 21:56:17 Sb: #3434-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Is UniFlex any better at real-time work than OSK? Microware has always praised OS9/K for its realtime response. BTW, I recall UniFlex being around back in the 6809 days -- oops, I mean around the time OS9 was pushing out Flex, about 1983. This is the first I've heard of UniFlex since way back then. And we thought Microware was hiding under a bushel...mike k There are 2 Replies. #: 3504 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 00:10:09 Sb: #3499-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Not better, but designed differently. RT OSK designs can be put together without a disk, while UniFlex needs a Hard Disk. It swaps processes to memory and/or the hard disk. OSK just uses RAM and doesn't swap. This can be a plus in many applications. My old UniFlex always swaps. Even if I have enough memory. It's basically just running procs in a 512Kb max space, and using the rest of memory (1.5meg) as the swap device (software memory management). Equipped with a 68030 you can run virtual memory and forget all that garbage. I want to port Minix to mine and get basically the system that OSK uses - out of memory? tough! The C compiler/Assembler are very good on the UniFlex machine. I documented a couple of bugs, but they are easy to work around. One feature it says I'm supposed to have is a Unix switch on the C compiler. As it is UniFlex uses a CR rather than a LF, and that messes alot of stuff up. The switch doesn't work though (the required library is probably an option $$). The other thing I hate is that it uses a '+' for command line options, rather than a '-' like normal. This causes you to have to use the shift key to get at. It's probably cheaper to buy a 386 with 'real' Unix than get UniFlex software by itself. It's very expensive with the RT and Virtual Mem options. Unless they had a big price reduction. There is 1 Reply. #: 3537 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:01:04 Sb: #3504-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 (X) Very interesting. Sounds like UNIX warmed over, same good and bad points. Except it's like OSK, not UNIX, in using CR instead of LF. As to price, Paul is hinting that UniFlex may be making a good deal, in order to get their product into t he spotlight maybe. I hadn't heard of UniFlex since 1983! Thanks for the info. #: 3510 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 10:14:23 Sb: #3499-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, TSC changed its name to UniFlex fairly recently. They actually sell pretty well nowadays, and their real-time response is quite good, certainly adequate for our targets. Flex was the OS that Tandy was considering along with OS-9 for the 6809. Flex lost out because they were -- at that time -- unwilling to do the port to the Color Computer. I guess they learn lessons! BTW, I am still big on Microware. They are busy because they have a very fine product. And I am negotiating (on the side) a deal with a DC beltway bandit to sell LOTS of copies of OS-9 and OS-9000 in a telemetry system that integrates an AMD29K, 68030,a dn 80386! Weird setup, but each chip is actually being used for what it does best. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3540 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:11:51 Sb: #3510-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Glad to hear Microware is still in the running, whew! So Flex and Uniflex are from the same outfit. Ya know Frank Hogg used to be a big Flex dealer, and phased over to OS9. Nice to know some beltway bandit got a '386 to do something besides spreadsheets, or whatever PClones are used for, grin. #: 3555 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 10:29:36 Sb: #3434-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 As a user/developer of os/9 communications software that runs on VME slaves, let me vote for an o.s. that does not require an attached mass storage device. If you require that (as people here have said UniFlex does), you lock yourself out of imbedded systems where a *lot* of the data acquisition work is done. FWIW. Mark Wuest #: 3446 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 09:25:43 Sb: #3433-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Thanks for the update. Minix, eh? Oh...btw...keep us updated! Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 3448 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 10:14:22 Sb: #3446-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Dan, No problem. You might want to look at all the official literature coming out of Kenneth-Leigh Enterprises -- notice that there is no mention of OS-9! That's not to say (once again) that we won't HAVE OS-9 -- just that the OS that's bundled with the system will be determined by timing and by what the market needs (low cost, powerful multitasking, UNIX-style). And, once again, we have good relations with the OS vendors mentioned. Paul #: 3453 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 11:44:55 Sb: #3053-#That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Paul I received the flyer from your group regarding the new computer, it seemed to me that it wasn't a finalized design, but a wish list. Also there was not any price or availability mentioned. I also have just received a flyer from the competition on their new intro to the os-9 market, the TC9. Now they have described how expandable it it is and how you could add a 68 this and a 16 MHZ that. But they did list a price for the TC9 at $299. But I could did not really say what ALL was on the board. Are we paying $299 for a coco3 ? with a KBUS connector with a Parallel port and 2 serial ports or what? Regardless, I am exited that there ARE TWO logical upgrades for the coco3 (I hope Tandy regretthere decision) and am anticipating more news for both of them. I wish both parties the best of luck, but frankly the fact that I can plug my coco3 into the os gateway really sways my checkbook heavily (oops). By the way the worEWAY has been used in IBM mainframe environments as a pseudo windowing system into different machines / processes. I have a friend who writes automation software for big blue machines. He has 3 coco hd systems in his computer room next to his terminal, where he can dial into work and fix the problems from home. Well one day he showed me this Gateway that they were using which allowed him to cut and paste system messages from one process to another (via Windows) on a TERMINAL !!!!!. It actually has more features, but I can't remember them. Just wanted to make you aware of the Gateway name, to avoid possible legal conflicts. Actually, I like the name OS Gateway. It reminds me of the movie ........... Millenium. One thing that I am really interested in is the stereo 8 bit bort for sound playing and sampling. I have been using Studio Works under rsdos which takes 5 or 6 bit samples (user selectable) through the joystick port. They have also announced an 8 bit A/D cartridge and new software coming out very soon. Now if I could only do that under os9. Looks like I can, it's just a matter of time. Can't wait. When will your machine be available ????????????????? There is 1 Reply. #: 3465 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 16:52:44 Sb: #3453-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Ha! That reminds me... some of the Amiga guys have decided that Millenium is the perfect name for the MM/1. Paul, take notice! There is 1 Reply. #: 3531 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 18:35:44 Sb: #3465-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Glad you remembered, Kevin. Here, capture this message and show it to Paul... "Millenium is the perfect name for the MM/1" signed, An Amiga Gui There is 1 Reply. #: 3535 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 21:23:42 Sb: #3531-That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Hehe. Done and done. Thanks! #: 3497 S15/Hot Topics 14-May-90 21:43:12 Sb: #3371-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Thanks for the info. Who makes up these names anyway :-) Wonder if the libe includes parse routines and sysex stuff? I already have the basics. Thanks, mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 3509 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 10:10:23 Sb: #3497-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) I have no clue what the libs contain. Even if I had them in hand, I think C code looks like someone dropped hairpins on a page of strange Ethiopian poetry. Although I HAVE successfully written a couple of small C programs, and have the hang of the compiler options. Just thought I'd best get up to date. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3539 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:08:20 Sb: #3509-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Yes, C code can look pretty dense to the novice, especially highly "idiomatic" C code. Pascal, on the other hand, is structured COBOL -- for folks who like to type a LOT of chars. --mike k #: 3454 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 11:53:01 Sb: #2973-#That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike Isn't the amiga multi-user as well as multi-tasking, or is it just multi-tasking ? There are 2 Replies. #: 3466 S15/Hot Topics 13-May-90 16:57:27 Sb: #3454-That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 While you can fire up a shell on the Amiga serial port, its OS doesn't currently have record-locking or multiuser permissions. Thus apps which have several users (say, a BBS or handling several Amigas for a database) usually just lock out entire files or whole partitions of the hard disk, to prevent problems. So no, I wouldn't consider it multiuser, any more than you'd call a CoCo under RSDOS with one of those remote serial port patches multiuser. #: 3498 S15/Hot Topics 14-May-90 21:44:54 Sb: #3454-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 What I hear is that Amiga is NOT multi-user, which gives the MM1 an advantage -- let your wife do word-crunching on your machine from another room. Too bad we didn't buy those CRT terminals at the last 'Fest, grin. There is 1 Reply. #: 3532 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 18:37:37 Sb: #3498-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) A frightening and somewhat disgusting thought.... Get an Amiga 500 to act as a remote terminal for the MM/1. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 3543 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:16:31 Sb: #3532-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) You're logged into t he wrong group. You meant to say "funny as h*ll", right? How about an MM1 serving as a Cluster Controller for a roomful of Amiga 500s? Just don't compare price tags -- maybe that's what's firghtening and disgusting. Lotsa grins on this one -- mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 3545 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:57:06 Sb: #3543-That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Uhm.. a 500 system suitable to be used as a terminal would run about $700-$800... (yeah, I meant 'funny as h*ll' :). Funny that some folks consider the Amiga as 'expensive'... guess I'm too used to fighting with MacFolk. --Eet-- #: 3496 S15/Hot Topics 14-May-90 21:40:51 Sb: #3370-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Great that you're getting support. I just hope that none of the Amiga/ST houses want to convert their MIDI software right away, if ya know what I mean. What, me selfish...? Anyway, I've pretty well decided not ever to bother with a Tomcat. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 3508 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 10:08:20 Sb: #3496-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, These Atari MIDI folks won't be on board too early, not until a "large enough" (10,000 +) group of MM/1 owners have the optional MIDI port. Looking at our stats, that might be a good 18 months. Then give 'em six to 12 months to write their stuff .. so you've got about two years before UltiMusE will be in the Survival-Of-The-Fittest mode. Yeah, I noticed on FHL's catalog that, once you buy the Tomcat board and a case (cheapest one is $180 and I know for a fact you can buy it from Shopper at $75), you then have to pay Frank $200 to put the thing together. Now hackers will do the integration themselves, but if Frank thinks that the hacker market is big enough to keep the CoCo ball rolling, he's got another thing comin' ... No, we want the MM/1 to be seen as a cool product for the software hacker, the consumer, and LATER the hardware hacker. I gues Frank is charging so much so that he won't get inundated with sales. After all, he can only sell a few hundred computers before the GIME chip supply is completely exhausted. Not to sound down on the Tomcat. I regard Bobo Puppo highly. He is a gentleman and a fine engineer. I just think that the MM/1 is the right approach to keep us together as a community. But then again, I am prejudiced. BTW, I am using Sterm on the MM/1 right now! Smooth, great colors on screen, a real nice system. Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 3518 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 20:41:12 Sb: #3508-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, My flyer on the Tomcat arrived yesterday from Frank. Any sign of yours soon? Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 3521 S15/Hot Topics 15-May-90 21:27:24 Sb: #3518-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) What?!! You haven't RECEIVED one!? Let me see, here... Gosh (embarrassed flush), no, I don't see you here on the database. With thousands of responses to our ads to handle, you slipped through. Sorry, Steve. One is in the mail. Paul There are 3 Replies. #: 3525 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 06:42:34 Sb: #3521-That Darn Computer! Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Well...Geez Paul....I haven't gotten one either! (Although I have seen one of the beta units already...grin).... Howzabout mailing one to: P.O. Box 1302, Fuquay-Varina, NC 27526 (and don't ask me how the town is pronounced either....hehe) Dan #: 3536 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 21:45:14 Sb: #3521-That Darn Computer! Fm: Bob Wilkinson 72477,1037 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Please send info to me also at: P. O. Box 5038 Anaheim, CA 92804 Thanks, Bob #: 3553 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 09:45:46 Sb: #3521-That Darn Computer! Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Thanks Paul. I really enjoyed our telephone conversation. Pick up the phone any time. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Steve #: 3538 S15/Hot Topics 16-May-90 22:06:29 Sb: #3508-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 OK Paul. Nice to know I have a little time, grin. Of course if you go UniFlex, that will tee a lot of people off, I suspect. Tho we are now seeing some discussions of its techinical merit versus OSK. Amazing how many people are coming out of the woodwork that have used UniFlex. Yes, Puppo's PC keyboard adapter is a really ingenious hack. I use it all the time now (can you tell by my typos!). Say, what machine's STerm did you start from to get it to the MM1? I DL'ed the Coco version once, spent $30 doing it I guess, but haven't tried it yet; I like OSTerm too much. BUt I could use that B+ protocol for DLs that aren't on Delphi. --mike k #: 3491 S15/Hot Topics 14-May-90 20:23:01 Sb: Mail Coming Fm: John Dickey 76537,2631 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Just a note here to tell you I have sent you EMAIL in case you do not have the option set to get mail on entering the service. John #: 3563 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 23:35:16 Sb: #3521-That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 ~ Paul; Include me too! The MM/1 is a serious consideration at this point. Jim Peasley 2228 Harding Ave. Redwood City, Ca. 94062 Thanks, ...Jim #: 3564 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 23:35:30 Sb: #3525-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 ~ Danno; Looking at my Rand-McNally, you live right smack-dab in an area we're considering moving to in a year or so. What's the name of the lake just to the NW of you? It's right in the crease of the book and I can't read it. Looks like a great area for outdoor recreation from the map... is it? ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 3565 S15/Hot Topics 17-May-90 23:56:25 Sb: #3564-That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 Jim - there's a whole bunch of man-made lakes around the RDU (Raleigh-Durham and Chapel Hill - "Research Triangle) area these days. The big one up on the NC/VA border is Kerr Lake (old timers call it Buggs Island Lake). I've lost track of the ones which are closer. Jordan Lake is one. Almost all of them are very popular for recreation, tho, yes. I'm sure Danno knows the names of the rest . Where are you at now? #: 3570 S15/Hot Topics 18-May-90 18:34:30 Sb: #2443-Tomcat Computer Fm: Gene Grecheck 74206,643 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 Frank, please also send me the brochure when it is ready: Eugene S. Grecheck 11520 Malibu St Chester, VA 23831 Thanks Press !> The OS-9 Forum Read Menu Read 1 [NEW] messages 2 Message NUMBER 3 WAITING messages for you (0) Search [new] messages 4 FROM (Sender) 5 SUBJECT 6 TO (Recipient) Enter choice !>1 #: 3590 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 11:56:40 Sb: #3557-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 (X) I know, I found the UNIX alias command and used it for that purpose! I just happen to like OS-9 better than UNIX. So sue me! --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 3604 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 14:22:57 Sb: #3590-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Oh, I agree with you 100%! #: 3688 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:45:31 Sb: #3460-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 Steve, Actually, I hope that we can prove you wrong here! Signetics (the manufacturer of our CPU) is very agressive in its OEM pricing for its 68070. Plus, the GNU C compiler has reportedly just been ported to OSK. We are evaluating the possibility of offering this excellent public domain C compiler at cost. Of course, we also need to look at just how solid the port is, and then justify the person-hours involved in fulfulling sales. So you may just be seeing a nice mid-priced computer system that blows away most other systems, and with a pd C compiler that can match features with the best! Paul #: 3689 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:48:37 Sb: #3533-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Have you goot William Hawes phone number? Anxious OS-9 person. Paul Ward #: 3681 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:27:37 Sb: #3544-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, Nah, it's not Pascal. And not to worry about the other languages you mentioned. Things are shaping up nicely here, BTW. I just hope that people can hang on a little longer. We are FINALLY starting a wave a press releases. Paul #: 3682 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:28:53 Sb: #3551-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 Colin, Well, you can always sell off parts of your other computer systems bit-by-bit! If you're like me, you have a CoCo 3 or two, a CoCo 2 or two, a MultiPak or two, and an extra printer. You could probably sell that stuff and almost get an MM/1 FREE! Paul #: 3687 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:41:47 Sb: #3449-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 Colin, Software support announcements are due to arrive next week. Support announcements in general are due to arrive this week. Prices will be announced within three weeks -- the only holdup is negotiations with ONE company. You see, I won't be happy until I can throw in $700 worth of software FREE with a $700 computer. Just receieved the latest offer from this company over the weekend, and we hope to iron things out by mid-June. Thanks for the interest! Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3696 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 14:05:07 Sb: #3687-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Richard Ries 76057,3534 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 PAUL- COULD YOU SEND INFO ON THE MM/1? SEND IT TO ME AT: RJR SYSTEMS PO BOX 560 COPIAGUE, NY 11726-0560 THANKS A LOT, RICH RIES. (SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I'M USING A 16K COCO2 WITH COMPAC!!) #: 3690 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:50:50 Sb: #3504-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 Well, UniFlex in volume is very nicely priced. Paul #: 3684 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:32:32 Sb: #3555-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 (X) Mark, Actually, Mark, most of our target market for data acq already does a good deal of work on systems that use large RAM storage. Seems a pity, considering how useful OS-9 in small configurations. I wouldn't worry about the OS choice, though. It'll be the one most asked for here. Paul #: 3594 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 12:35:37 Sb: #3433-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I guess the question is--how Unix-like is it? It may have changed in the five years since I actually saw anything about it, but from what I did see back then, UniFlex looked different enough from Unix that the Unix-worshippers would turn their noses up at it. By now you may have already seen the BITNET messages saying something like "MINIX?!? Are you crazy?" MINIX is good for what it was intended for, i.e. a pedagogical tool, but aside from that...I've yet to hear from anyone using it in a production environment. There are 2 Replies. #: 3605 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 19:34:40 Sb: #3594-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Steve Sampson N5OWK 75136,626 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) It's safe to assume that anything that says "Unix-like" usually refers to the file system. From there it get's pretty different from the real thing. UniFlex is no different than Unix in its file system (ie, Inodes, etc) but it has so many differences as to be also MS-DOS-like, OS-9-like, or "you name it -like". "Unix-like" is a sales tool, which means nothing really. #: 3685 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:37:31 Sb: #3594-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) James, Good points, both -- UNIFlex is actually very MUCH like UNIX now. Also, MINIX is in demand at universities for pedagogy, as you mention, and to SELL MINIX is easier than to SELL OS-9. However, one of the main reasons that other OSes are being considered is that many purchasers may simply need a choice -- whether or not they actually USE two or more operating systems on the same computer is up to them. Personally, I would push OS-9 on them by tailoring it to their needs. OS-9 can be made to look much more UNIX-y than it does now. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3708 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 19:27:28 Sb: #3685-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 That's true--and as Feds start writing POSIX into their RFPs, there will be quite a bit of incentive to make it look like Unix. #: 3595 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 12:42:10 Sb: #3509-#That Darn Computer! Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Make that Vogon poetry, and I'd agree with you. The above, needless to say, is purely my personal opinion!!! :-) :-) :-) There is 1 Reply. #: 3686 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:38:38 Sb: #3595-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) James, How refreshing to hear that a C programmer finds C a little alien! BTW, I appreciate your personal opinions VERY MUCH. Keep it comin. Paul #: 3693 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 13:10:00 Sb: #3532-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, May not be necessary. Just buy an MM/1 as a remote terminal. Won't need a local floppy, just the boards, a portable case, the MM/1 CPU board, and for about the price of an Amiga 1000, you've got a topnotch graphics terminal especially with a client/server windowing system. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3698 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 16:04:23 Sb: #3693-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Well... yeah, that occurred to me right after I left the message. You must mean an A500, tho, since CBM has (yet again :) discontinued the A1000... Got the 'grand tour' of Microware today... some of it was pretty impressive... Some of it was d*mned impressive :). James Jones (my tour guide ) showed me this nifty little Sharp 68000 import running OS/9 68000 v2.2. While the windowing system looked very impressive, it appeared to have one or two features I didn't care for (auto-window-to-front, for example)... I only mention that becuase it gives me an excuse to suggest that you/kevin let me take a lookit the gui for the Millenium before its released (even a GIF pic, if I don't have one by then). A book James gave me ("OS/9 Sourcebook"), lists a bunch of software titles for OS/9... unfortunately, I didn't see, in a brief look-see, any graphics oriented or entertainment oriented titles (other than some GKS stuff)... That's where I plan on concentrating my area of development, regardless of what OS I use... --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 3702 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 17:44:41 Sb: #3698-That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Jim - there's been very few gfx-oriented OS9 machines around up 'til lately (except overseas). So you'll have a wide-open market as far as entertainment programs go. Think of it as being the first year of Amigas being out... Glad you got to visit with JJ! Talk atcha later - kev #: 3602 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 13:18:46 Sb: #3498-#That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike I was thrilled when I found outI could strap on a terminal on my serial port and have a multi-user system. I really did it just to see what it was like, I don't have a need for a multi-user environment, but I like to to the PC people, and MAC peopleI work with. The only problem I had (I used a WYSE 50 terminal) when I hooked up the terminal was that when I typed a cr and certain other characters, my shell locked up. I tried emulating (thorugh the terminal only) all the different types of terms the WY-50 could, and some were worse than others. But It was an interesting experience. Multi-user, multi-tasking on a computer that is just a little over o foot long, and costs $128-$200. That aint no TRASH-80 ! Can't wait for the MM1, and this new version of OS9 for the coco3. I'll be bragging like theres no tomorrow. There are several people I work with (all software engineers) that want to see my coco3 system now. But I am trying to hold off and wait for the new os-9 package, so It will really blow there socks off. There are 2 Replies. #: 3637 S15/Hot Topics 20-May-90 23:11:55 Sb: #3602-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Tony, Glad to see you are discovering the wonders of this little system. Just as an aside, there is an "expert" at Tandy that stated the UNIX uucp protocol and suit of utilities could not, no way, be done on the CoCo. Ed Gresick has been using his CoCo3 to receive and send store orders with Tandy in Fort Worth for a couple months now using UUCP. Even tho this "expert" has seen this happen, he refuses to believe it. Just shows you how people cannot believe how good this system is. Ed will jump in here is he has more to offer (grin). Mark #: 3645 S15/Hot Topics 21-May-90 10:24:41 Sb: #3602-That Darn Computer! Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Tony - I use WYSE-50's (albeit, on a Gimix... but I have used them on coco2's & coco3's as well). Should be no problems: o - Have you read SERIAL.TXT in DL2? o - Do you have the IRQHAK installed? Pete #: 3679 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:24:11 Sb: #3536-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Bob Wilkinson 72477,1037 Bob, Thanks for the interest! Will send out information today. paul #: 3692 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 13:06:34 Sb: #3465-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Actually, Millenium is one of the names we talked about at your place! That and the M/Falcon. Interesting. Well, MM/1 is pretty strongly embedded now, but we've been breaking molds all along, so maybe using Millienium is a good idea, at least as the official nickname! Paul #: 3691 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 13:04:50 Sb: #3453-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Tony, Looks like you sent the message to the wrong guy. You can direct all the New Computer messages to me. The MM/1 will be available late summer -- I mean, we will actually be shipping in quantitiy. The list of features you received is a wish list, but it is also a list of the features that the computer actually has! I have one MM/1 here on my desk, another one in the living room, and there are others sprinkled around the US. We have some small design changes to make, some production costs to deal with, and software licenses to finish up. Then we can announce an official "street price". BTW, we have folks here in Washington who want to put the MM/1 in a hightech showcase full of advanced multimedia computers. Chances are slime they'll want the TC-9 for anything at all, even if they COULD get their hands on one, which they can't. Paul PS. I don't mean to sound down on the TC-9. THe MM/1 is just plain better and is the only choice that will keep our community together for the next five years or more. You should make a list of what you want to get on the TC-9, then ask FHL how much they'll charge you. There is 1 Reply. #: 3706 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 19:23:49 Sb: #3691-That Darn Computer! Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Hmmm..."chances are slime," you say? #: 3680 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:25:39 Sb: #3539-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, Well, you know that most of this talk about UNIFlex is really not worth worrying about. You will have an OS that makes you feel COMPLETELY at home (wink). Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3707 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 19:24:37 Sb: #3680-That Darn Computer! Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Hmmm...since Dr. K. works where I used to work, that is somewhat of a scary thought for me. #: 3612 S15/Hot Topics 19-May-90 23:03:44 Sb: #3570-#Tomcat Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Gene Grecheck 74206,643 Will do, thanks for asking. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 3678 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 12:18:55 Sb: #3612-Tomcat Computer Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 Frank, Tomcat looks good from here. (Rx'd the brochure). Next go 'round you might was to make it clear that the basic TC is (or is not) the same as a CoCo 3. (+++ #: 3668 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 03:57:15 Sb: #2443-Tomcat Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 Frank - From Phil Brown on bitnet: Would you please forward this query to frank? Frank: I just read your Advertisement in the June issue of Rainbow, for the Tomcat. I was quite impressed, and glad you took a full-page . But, as they say, with the answers to questions come more questions. I have pulled out various issues, that I have tried to keep directly related to the Ad. You may want to break up your reply into 2 or more separate replies. For the K-Bus system of OSk: I have heard that the K-bus is only 16-bit. Is this true, and if so, have you any plans to change this? (Since osk is advertised with the K-bus) Does your $300 OSk package come with the C comopiler? How much for it separately? And mainly for the Tomcat/TC9 : It was said that the TC9 is "K-bus compatible". Does that mean that it is possible to add on a K-bus, or does one come with it? (aside: How about 1.2/1.4 Meg flopies?) You stated that the TC9 could use a 68000 board as a co-processor. Would that be in some ways automatic, or is it up to us to make our programs take advantage of this? Similarly, What configurations are possible? TC9 and TWO 68000 boards? TC9 and perhaps a CoCoIII? Would TC9 and a 68030 be better than TC9 + 68000? Since a 68000 can use TC9 as a slave board, can a 68030 use a 68000 board? If you can have multiple TC9s, how about multiple 68000 boards? You said that the joystick res has been increased to 256. How will this affect a high-res joystick interface? Is there any way to get 640 by XXX joystick res WITHOUT using a hi-res interface? Will it be possible to use a logitech, or optical, "digital" mouse, under OS9? (since it will have "real" serial ports now) How about no-halt disk operations, under OS9, without a 68000 board? You mentioned that under OSk, with the 68000 board as main CPU, the TC9 would be "a multi-function graphics co-processor". You didn't mention anything about the graphics board I have heard about here! Does the TC9 have increased res. over the CoCo III? #: 3697 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 15:04:44 Sb: #Univ BBS Marketing Fm: James D. Denboer 76226,2273 To: All The University of California in Santa Cruz has set up a BBS in the 415 area - 415 524 9625 - with info about their Computer Science Institute that offers short courses this summer in -Unix, C, Networks, Fuzzy Theory, Geographical Information Systems, Fault Tolerant Computing, Technical Writing, and more. Plus free magazines to callers. What I'm wondering is if people would call this BBS - I'm studying the conference and course registration market and see a tremendous slump in registration. What is going on out there - why aren't people registering for conferences? Are corporations not funding this anymore? Would you be someone who would call in for info? Or would you rather request info by easyplex? There is 1 Reply. #: 3709 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 19:30:37 Sb: #3697-Univ BBS Marketing Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: James D. Denboer 76226,2273 Well....those conferences sound quite interesting, but I'm trying to even cut back on my phone bill, much less the charges for seminars, food, lodging, travel, and the like! #: 3717 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 22:54:45 Sb: #3637-#That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X) Cool. But I bet there are still a lot of people at Tandy who don't realize what a coco3 and LII can do. Have they heard of the Disto 1Meg bd ? Have they seen Ultimuse, OSterm, Window Writer or other great programs ? How about the 85MEG hard drive I have here next to me. No, must be a PC or a VAX. Can't possibly be a color computer. TC Cool. But I bet the real influences at Tandy still don't realize what the coco & LII [D [D [D [D There is 1 Reply. #: 3727 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 00:28:40 Sb: #3717-That Darn Computer! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 The COCO people at Tandy of course know what it can do. But the PC types have more say down there, obviously. #: 3718 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 22:59:57 Sb: #3645-#That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete. Wwhere did you come from. Long time no RX/TX. Yes I believe I have read the serial.txt file, but will double check my documentation directory. I'll be right back. Ok. I'm back. Ssorry about the delay. Looks like I have a file called rs232c.txt It may be the same file. Maybe I renamed it. I did not do the irqhak, I did the diode hack, which turned out to be pretty unreliabel. Maybe I'll try the IRQHAK. TC There is 1 Reply. #: 3731 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 00:35:35 Sb: #3718-That Darn Computer! Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Tony - Oh, I've been here all along. I have been a little less obvious of late because of an intensive travel period, but things are getting back to normal now. Pete #: 3758 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 21:52:16 Sb: #3706-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Slim, slime. Such is the power of the silent e. This is a case for LETTERMAN! (forgive the reference to Electric Company on such a stuffy sig.) Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3771 S15/Hot Topics 24-May-90 06:06:12 Sb: #3758-#That Darn Computer! Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) "But my brother Sam stayed just the same..." --Tom Lehrer Us, stuffy? There is 1 Reply. #: 3797 S15/Hot Topics 25-May-90 11:43:57 Sb: #3771-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Ha! Paul #: 3757 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 21:50:18 Sb: #3698-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Jim, Yeah, the folks who use OS-9/68K in the field must NEVER play games, 'cause there are just so darn few of them for OSK. That will change with the MM/1, though, because the graphics will give programmers lots of incentive. And I hope they take advantage of the sound/MIDI, too. The GUI will look fundamentally like Open Look's latest version (see Open Windows from Sun, v. 2 or better). Much much classier than Mac, Amiga, or Motif. I haven't seent he Amiga 3000's new windowing stuff yet, but I feel very good about the direction Commodore is taking with the Amiga. Paul #: 3720 S15/Hot Topics 22-May-90 23:08:47 Sb: #3697-Univ BBS Marketing Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: James D. Denboer 76226,2273 ~ James; I tried calling after reading your initial message. Using 8-N-1 @ 2400 baud, I was able to logon successfully, but it seemed that the screen was out of synch with where it should have been - i.e. only half of a menu would appear before pausing for my input. Finally gave up in frustration. What kind of software are you using? ...Jim #: 3743 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 16:22:18 Sb: #3697-#Univ BBS Marketing Fm: Wayne Day 76703,376 To: James D. Denboer 76226,2273 For what it's worth... it's my opinion that the day when a company or a institution that's trying to sell something can set up a BBS and be relatively assured of market penatration is past, long past. So, perhaps you're not getting the word out as you might have some time in the past. That's problem #1. Second problem is the fact that every mother and her sons and daughters are offering seminars and "short courses" and the like. If I get less than 25-30 advertisements from folks hawking everything from management seminars to courses a month in how to plug in a computer, I consider asking the post office to check on the health of my postal carrier! As far as the free magazines go... who's got time to read all they get now, free or subscription? I need one more? If I did, the chances are that I've already started the process to getting it. Besides... "free magazines" is a code word that marketers use meaning "let me send you some slick & glossy advertisements that we tried to disguise as a magazine in the hopes that you'll read it." Even beloved CompuServe used that tactic for years with "Online Today", and have since at least changed the name back to what it should have been in the first place "CompuServe Magazine". Is your "free magazine" that different from what I've described? Don't mean this to sound like a shotgun blast, James, but having been involved in the videotext industry for a few years, it's interesting to watch how well, and how poorly, marketing efforts attempt to use telecommunications media such as videotext. Wayne There is 1 Reply. #: 3747 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 18:26:12 Sb: #3743-Univ BBS Marketing Fm: Paul Rinear 73757,1413 To: Wayne Day 76703,376 (X) Yeah Wayne! #: 3756 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 21:46:34 Sb: #3696-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Richard Ries 76057,3534 Rich, Sure will! We have two mailings going out this week, and one next! I'll sneak your name in. Hey, I've still got a CoCo 2 hanging around with a composite output adapter! Still alive and kickin. OTOH, this MM/1 is spoiling me fast. Gotta random line drawing program screaming in another window while I'm online .. looks great in 256 colors! Paul Just trying to whet the appetite for the MM/1! #: 3766 S15/Hot Topics 24-May-90 02:50:21 Sb: #3687-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, do you want some space in the next MOTD? You qualify as a "Boot". There is 1 Reply. #: 3796 S15/Hot Topics 25-May-90 11:43:32 Sb: #3766-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 Gosh, Bill! Sure! Let's get in touch on the telephone soon! When's the deadline? Paul #: 3759 S15/Hot Topics 23-May-90 21:53:22 Sb: #3708-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Yeah, I spoke with Kim Kempf a couple of weeks ago about POSIX compatibility -- it's on the schedule, but down the road. Paul #: 3795 S15/Hot Topics 25-May-90 01:01:58 Sb: oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: sysop (X) I have just uploaded an announcment for the TC70, a 68070 based color graphic computer for the Tomcat line. Please check it out and make it available to the guys. Thanks Frank #: 3808 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 02:17:57 Sb: #3802-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, If you sold all your blown stuff to a Commodore 64 owner, it would be a step up for him/her!! Paul PS Keep your eyes out for a special MM/1 offer and for some press releases. #: 3826 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 10:23:17 Sb: #3796-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I am shooting for June 15th. There is 1 Reply. #: 3838 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 12:47:58 Sb: #3826-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 No sweat. Paul #: 3809 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 02:18:46 Sb: #3803-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, I can offer you $50 off the computer with a special deal we're posting tomorrow. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3835 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 12:37:36 Sb: #3809-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) ~ Yeah, Paul! Anxiously awaiting full specs on the MM/1, including an estimated release date, OS, software, hardware options, $$$, etc. I casually dropped a reference to the MM/1 and OS-9 in an I*M forum dedicated to specs for the 'ultimate' home computer, and was deluged with replies for more info. Everything that they wanted in the 'ultimate rOME computer' is being done right now with the CoCo and LII, with the exception of touch screens, so the MM/1 should be that much better if you haven't left anything out! ...waiting and watching the mailbox and LIB15. ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 3839 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 12:50:11 Sb: #3835-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, The stuff went out with a several-thousand-piece mailing last week! Response has been outstanding. Thanks for the interest, and keep your eyes posted! Paul #: 3814 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 03:53:36 Sb: #3731-That Darn Computer! Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 Pete Wwell I just moved, a bit closer to your direction. I used to live in Sepulveda, now I'm in Canoga Park. I'm really close to work now. Less than a mile. Now I can os9 while I eat lunch ! Hey. Your just a stones throw over the hill. I still would like to see your Gimiz system sometime, if that's ok. We taled about that on the phone a while back, before you moved. I'm curious how you hav e have the terminals set up (software wise not hardware). TC #: 3824 S15/Hot Topics 26-May-90 08:57:39 Sb: #3795-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Your announcement has been enabled, but you may wish to take a look at it. There seems to be a few characters .. and in one instance a full line of text missing. If you feel it's necessary to upload a correction, just use the same file name and extension. The system will automatically take care of deleting the first file. Steve #: 3883 S15/Hot Topics 27-May-90 22:02:38 Sb: #3766-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Dale L. Puckett 71446,736 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) Yo, Bill !!! How's it going back in Maryland. Esther and I are just about to get settled in. Sure is peaceful and quiet here!!! Getting started on the History book too! Did you get the article for UltraScience that I sent to you back in January. Haven't seen an MOTD since we arrived in Kansas in early February. Stay in touch! Dale There is 1 Reply. #: 3940 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 16:04:20 Sb: #3883-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Dale L. Puckett 71446,736 (X) Glad things are quiet! I did get the article, although I did not publish. I had probs with the graphics & ran short of time. I just picked up a Tandy 1100FD today. Trying it out now. Can't get Telcom to Backspace/Delete! If you can't see this line I got it to wo D D/exit #: 3913 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:43:23 Sb: #3687-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) $700 machine with $700 free software? Paul, you'll be known as the Drew A Kaplan (DAK) of the East Coast. Please don't take that as an insult -- his catalog ad copy is a blast to read, almost up there with Doc Smith's "Lensmen" novels. ^-). There are 2 Replies. #: 3923 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 05:13:15 Sb: #3913-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) I don't know about that--I haven't seen DAK use the word "coruscating" or the phrase "luckless wight" even once! (Much less "zwilnik" :-) There is 1 Reply. #: 4054 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:21:22 Sb: #3923-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Just wait till Drew K has played with his Thesaurus program another month! I think "coruscating" is actually a real English word! "Wight" sounds like something out of a madrigal. There is 1 Reply. #: 4064 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:15:45 Sb: #4054-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Yes, coruscating is a real English word, you betcha! All Things Considered talked to someone from the OED, and the woman from NPR didn't know what coruscating meant. If she'd had a background in *real* literature, she'd have been familiar with "coruscating"! (Darned neo-Luddite media types...) #: 3930 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 10:31:26 Sb: #3913-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, Drew Kaplan is one of my IDOLS, watch OUT! Yes, actually the software may be worth more than $700 if you bought it on the street. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4056 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:25:55 Sb: #3930-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Uh-oh. Well, I'll bear that in mind when reading your ads :-). #: 3912 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:39:26 Sb: #3590-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Yeah, I typed a bunch of Aliases into my UN*X shell at work to let me use OS9 del, dir, list, etc. Unforch a co-worker saw me doing it and thought I was making it compatible with MS-DOS! Shou8uld have made him bite his tongue off. #: 3894 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 03:47:43 Sb: #3689-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Lessee...I've got his address in my Arexx manual... I'll go back over to AmigaTech and check the member directory... I've chatted with him over there, but never made note of his CIS ID. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 3898 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 13:35:50 Sb: #3894-#OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Thx for tracking down that Rexx stuff. I know that twoof the AMiga vendors thatrt are in the MM/1 developers alliance have expressed a desire to have Arexx. Just email me that address when you find it! Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3920 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 04:32:19 Sb: #3898-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Okay, I emailed it to you. Dunno if he'll do the port... lemme know how it goes. --Eet-- #: 3885 S15/Hot Topics 27-May-90 22:31:33 Sb: #3339-Tomcat Computer Fm: NAM PUI 73347,3324 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Hi Frank: Didn't talk to you in Chicago Rainbowfest. You were extremely busy then. Is there a plan for a 80x86 board for you TC9 system? I just want see some form of CAD program run under OS9 or OS9000. Nam #: 3896 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 11:52:18 Sb: #3795-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank - if you do redo the TC70 announcement, you might want to correct something (assuming I'm right): I don't think the 070 will go 19Mhz... that may be the external frequency input, but that's divided by two to get the true cpu clock, you see. So that should probably be 9.5Mhz instead. That would reflect the normal 68K clock speed value used in computer specifications. best - kev There are 2 Replies. #: 3901 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 13:43:57 Sb: #3896-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, Thx for pointing that out first. I don't want anyone to think >I< sling mud! Yeah, with the actual clock speed of the TC70 running at about 9 MHz, and with video chip/CPU contention over memory, I'd be surprised if the TC70 would greatly outperfrom a CoCo 3. Not bad for a $1000 machine .... Paul There are 3 Replies. #: 3909 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:23:25 Sb: #3901-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Uh, Paul and Kev, can you straighten this out? Is the 15 MHz speed advertised for the MM1 also needing to be divided by 2, so we end up with the same 7.5 as an Amiga? Hey, I'll still take one, but have you got a teflon mud deflector on the MM1? --mike k There are 2 Replies. #: 3918 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 01:25:59 Sb: #3909-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike - yikes, didn't meant to start anything. But to answer your question, no, the 070 on their MM/1 uses a 30Mhz clock... which divided by two gives the 15Mhz speed. Note that it's only with the 68070 that you have to do this divide... it's a chip with a cpu, timer, serial and other stuff, y'see. If you see "16Mhz 68020" for example, then it means 16Mhz. #: 3929 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 10:30:28 Sb: #3909-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) No, Mike, the CLOCK is 30 MHz, which is divided by two to get the 15 MHz speed. Actually, a full MM/1 system with the CPU board and I/O board runs at around 1000 Drystones, while an Amiga (according to the Dhrystone ratings I have here) runs around 350 Dhrystones. That seems too slow to be real, but I guess the Amiga has no choice but to share memory with the graphics chips, causing the CPU to wait. Does that reflect the truth, Kevin Darling? Does this mean that an MM/1 will be up to 2.5 times faster than an Amiga? Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3937 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 13:49:33 Sb: #3929-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I have no idea. Is it the same Dhrystone? You have to be careful... there are several versions out there. The only thing to do is to run the same program, under OSK on both the Amiga and the MM/1 (and the ST, and the PT, etc etc). That way everything is fair. Hmm. Of course, if you know it's the same D version, then we can compare it with the amiga, as long as we realize that benchmarks are just general comparisons. And you'd have to compare a fat amiga with fast ram, to an mm/1 with the extra fast ram installed. Etc. It'll definitely be faster than a stock amiga, yes. How much faster depends on amount of fast and/or video ram, and video resolution (if running from shared video ram, mm/1 should be faster). There is 1 Reply. #: 3951 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 19:10:47 Sb: #3937-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, I DO know that it is the SAME Dhrystone program. It came on the PT 68K that Pease sent to me, and its the same Dhrystone that Pease ran on his CoCo that ran about 270 Ds under Level 2. Of course, a 270 D CoCo 3 is FAR more productive than a 5000 D super IBM thingie. So Drhystone is not really meaningful in terms of sheer productivity. Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 3981 S15/Hot Topics 30-May-90 01:22:47 Sb: #3951-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) but what was the Dhrystone that was run on the Amiga?? (didn't know there was one.) an MM/1 running at 15 mhz should logically be faster than a stock amiga running at 7.14 mhz, I would think. --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 4061 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:12:37 Sb: #3981-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Yeah, according to the DStone docs I had, the SAME program was compiled and run on the Amiga. Which compiler, I do not know. A base case MM/1 runs about twice as fast as an Amiga on most things. Peak performance is three times as fast on most things. At least according the the DStone stuff. Paul post #: 4100 S15/Hot Topics 03-Jun-90 22:59:01 Sb: #3981-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 THere are some differences in the 68070 execution speeds and 68000 exec speeds. The 070 has a little overhead. So a 15 MHz 68070 runs like a 13 Mhz 68000 -- of course our graphics chip helps out alot, and DMA is especially nice in improving the feel of the computer. It does scream, even when we exercise a complicated graphics demo in another window. One demo was flipping through ten pictures as fast as they could load into buffers from ram disk, while we ran Procs and formatted a floppy and did several other things. Even on a floppy-only system, we still had EXCELLENT responsiveness. The floppies transfer data twice as fast as a CoCo, and with DMA, to a Dir command executed concurrently with all that above stuff is pretty darn smooth. Paul #: 4019 S15/Hot Topics 31-May-90 07:41:22 Sb: #3951-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: William Phelps 75100,265 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, since Dhrystones seem to be so uninformative, why not use Rhealstones instead? (org. ref. DDJ 02/89) William There is 1 Reply. #: 4065 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:16:22 Sb: #4019-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: William Phelps 75100,265 (X) Good idea! Realstones and Khornerstones seem to make certain sense. Of course,t he DStone I was using actually documented quite a few computers that had run exactly the same version, so we could compare the MM/1 against hundreds of other computers. Faster that some PDP mainframes, btw. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4118 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jun-90 00:29:59 Sb: #4065-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: William Phelps 75100,265 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 The Rhealstone also runs through the OS rather than on top of it, so it is not a separate process. The benchmark also has a strict reporting standard to discourage "accidental" cheating. The weighting report allows one computer to do well in some areas while another does well in other areas. This will cut down the bragging, but customers will appreciate unbiased information. William #: 3922 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 04:38:13 Sb: #3901-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Talk about mud slinging... Michael Haaland (sp) sure tossed some wet, sloppy ones in that 'press release' file-type thing... The MM/1's interlace 'flicker' is every bit as good as the Amiga's, it has to be, that's an NTSC standard, like you see on your tv. I heard that he compared them using a long-persistance monitor on the MM/1... maybe if he used a Microway FlickerFixer or an A3000 with a multisync monitor, he might not have noticed the Amiga's flicker at all... but that's just speculating. Potential MM/1 buyers should NOT worry at all about the 'flicker'. Consider... Mac users pay extra money to get their computers to 'flicker'. --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 3925 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 06:42:56 Sb: #3922-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Ah good, you beat me to it . Yes, hey Paul! Better yank out that bit about interlace flicker being less on the MM/1 than on the Amiga. _Any_ computer with interlace will flicker some, depending on picture content and monitor being used. Computer type doesn't matter. (thx Jim!) There is 1 Reply. #: 3973 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 23:46:25 Sb: #3925-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, Promptly yanked out! The release is now a rerelease -- sans the Amiga comment! However, for the record, I have had a fair amount of contact with the Amiga and with the MM/1 -- I still see LESS flicker on the MM/1 -- so the diff must be in the monitor used or in the particular graphics pictures I have had the luck to see. And Mr. Haaland saw quite a few interlace pics at the Fest, and agreed with all of us that it was quite a stable pict So, OK, sorry I goofed, but it was an honest mistake. Cringing, Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 3983 S15/Hot Topics 30-May-90 01:25:58 Sb: #3973-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Well, the MM/1 has RGB analog video, right? Which means I (and others) could use an Amiga 1084 monitor with it (among others)... and if they get an MM/1 (oops, MILLENIUM :) after hearing/reading that it's got less/no flicker, and then it flickers the same amount... well, you don't want to face that problem, do you? Didn't want to start an RWar, just didn't want people phreaking later when the lace on the Millenium is noticed. --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 4057 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:37:30 Sb: #3983-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Say Jim, you defend the Amiga a lot, and I've learned a lot about them from you (like how cost-effective the right model can be). Do you have OSK on your Amiga(s)? If not, do you hope/expect to? Is that Aussie port selling at all well? Any grafix on the horizon, other than Kev's someday? #: 4062 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:14:33 Sb: #3983-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Jim, Yeah, the lace is noticeable on the MM/1 but only on one or two of the dozen pics I have seen. I cannot explain why it looks nicer. Paul Thanks for keeping me up to speed on the hardware stuff -- the video out is the same as the Amiga -- expect we get a little more resolution. #: 3932 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 10:36:13 Sb: #3922-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Actually, both Mike and I looked at the SAME interlace pictures at the Rainbowfest, and Kevin Pease (our designer) agreed with us that it seemed to flicker less than the Amiga. Since I posted that press release, we have learned that, theoretically, there should be no difference. I guess we have all been unlucky enough to have been viewing interlace pictures that don't flicker alot because of the colors they use. Wrists are slapped. I apologize -- although this is an honest mistake -we've just been going on what our eyes have told us! Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 3952 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 19:53:00 Sb: #3932-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mark S 76004,373 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Flicker is a function of persistance. Interlace displays have a high persistance, noninterlace have a low one. If you want to do high speed graphics you need a low persistance. There are 2 Replies. #: 3971 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 23:38:03 Sb: #3952-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mark S 76004,373 (X) Mark, Thanks -- I think I've learned my lesson on this one! The converse is that low speed graphics (interlace mode) requires the persistence that apparently OUR monitors had, compared to the Amiga monitors I have seen. Although I actually thought that most of those Amiga monitors were functionally equivalent to the Magnavox 85CM15 I've been using on the MM/1. Best, Paul #: 3985 S15/Hot Topics 30-May-90 01:28:39 Sb: #3952-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mark S 76004,373 (X) Flicker is _affected_ by persistance... I don't think I'd go so far as to say it's a function of persistance. --Eet-- #: 3984 S15/Hot Topics 30-May-90 01:27:46 Sb: #3932-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Don't blame you. I'm using an interlaced display right now on my Amiga, very, very very little flicker... because of the colors. (tho when I go back to a non-lace screen, sometimes it seems to 'bounce' ). personally, I think the sweat over flicker is overdone, anyway... who notices the flicker in their TV set? --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 4058 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:41:52 Sb: #3984-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 My concern is that horizxontal lines only one pixel high, on a contrasting background, will flicker. Music staves, ya know. If I draw them double height, then flicker will be less, but then might as well not use the doubled interlace resolution at all. I saw lots of those pix at the Fest too, and flicker was noticeable if you looked for it when each picture first came up. But "natural" pix don't have the contrast that sharp horizontal lines do. Any CAD/CAM types here want to comment? There is 1 Reply. #: 4101 S15/Hot Topics 03-Jun-90 23:02:57 Sb: #4058-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, If you can come up with a solution to the stave flicker problem, you've got a client in Florida who will be VERY happy. BTW, I have yet to upload the details of that deal we have -- need to get data from my partner. Paul #: 4063 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:15:03 Sb: #3984-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Excellent point! #: 3955 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 20:08:32 Sb: #3901-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul What you *KAPOW* sling (PLOP) mud! {SLIME?] Naw #FLOP# not (FLOP, KAPOW) you. Slime??? Frank Hogg There are 2 Replies. #: 3956 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 20:12:07 Sb: #3955-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Paul Now you gotta watch yourself, anything bad you say about the TC70 reflects on the mmi. Be careful out there. Frank Hogg \ PS Slime??? There is 1 Reply. #: 3974 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 23:50:36 Sb: #3956-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Actu{lly, not true. There are great many differences between the mm/1 and the {C70.~r (Sorry for the garbage on the lid8ne.) And even if the computers were identical, there are issues of support, marketing, available software, and so on, that all r6#{eflect on the company. No one will argue that the folks at IMS are different from the folk(s) at FHL! Actually, Frank, it is good to see that Hazelwood saw the light on an 070 system. Guess the MM/1 was a great idea that deserved some reasonable competition. Regards, Paul (with slightly sullied hands! Grin) #: 3972 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 23:40:36 Sb: #3955-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Nah, not me. Just about everyone who knows me knows I don't sling mud. WHich is different than calling a spade a spade! I don't think anyone who has been watching this sordid business would say that I did anything to alter the reputation of FHL one IOTA! Best regards, Paul #: 3954 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 20:04:59 Sb: #3896-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) You're right, I screwed up. It does run at 15Mhz which is as fast as the '70 will go. I had my numbers wrong. Shows to go me for working till all hours. Still it is the best of the two with 50% more RAM and an AT keyboard and K-Bus and it mounts on a drive etc etc. Keep up the good work. Frank #: 3907 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:15:06 Sb: #3545-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) $800 sounds pretty cheap for an Amiga 500. I guess that's a monochrome monitor setup. But yes, the Amiga is considered expensive relative to ST (tho probably not for "comparable systems"). Of course as you point out, everything is a bargain next to MacPrices. There is 1 Reply. #: 3919 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 04:25:44 Sb: #3907-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Nope, full system, computer, monitor 1 internal floppy. No such thing as a 'mono system' for the amiga... almost an oxymoron. :) --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4053 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:19:52 Sb: #3919-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Wow -- all that for $850? Sheesh, a color ST costs at least that. Is that Amiga 500 system with 512K? Upgradable to what? Of course for music work I don't need more than 4 colors, tho. #: 3934 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 11:32:49 Sb: #3814-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 (X) Tony - Shoot... you are close. I'm in Newbury Park, which is the last exit on the 101, before you go over the 'hill' (Conejo Grade)... probably about 20 miles from Canoga Park. I'm not running as many terminals as I used to... down to a Wyse50 on an A/B switch as /Term & /T4, a PC/AT on /T3, a cocoII on /T2, and modems on /T6 and /T7 (/T1 is the BSR home controller). You're welcome to swing up some evening, if you like (school nights excepted).. drop me a note here, or call. Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 3957 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 20:41:07 Sb: #3934-#That Darn Computer! Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) "Conejo Grande"? "Big Rabbit" seems like a very odd name for a hill. (But then, I doubt that I would've had the courage to name the "Grand Tetons" either. ) There is 1 Reply. #: 3968 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 23:09:12 Sb: #3957-That Darn Computer! Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) James - Did I type 'Grande'? It was supposed to have been 'grade' - a large incline that goes from sea level to about 1500-2000 feet in a mile or so. Pete #: 3911 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:34:40 Sb: #3706-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) He meant there was just a ghost of a chance, and it slimed him! #: 3910 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:26:30 Sb: #3707-That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Oh no! Not THAT at-home OS? Want a new device driver? How many hours to recompile the kernel? What source...? Oh no, not ioctl(7) just to read a keyboard character.... Don't worry James, none of us could afford it anyway, grin. --mike k PS: Thanks for the "Dr." -- anybody got a sick machine? #: 3908 S15/Hot Topics 28-May-90 22:19:18 Sb: #3680-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Great, Paul. Even when I type MFREE, I trust, since I have 1 Meg in my Coco 3 now. I Meg is stock on the MM1, right? I heard a rumor of 2 Meg but that doesn't fit the form factor, no? --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 3928 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 10:27:03 Sb: #3908-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, Currently 1 meg of DRAM in DIP packaging is on the CPU board. The I/) (I/O rather) board has 2 SIMM sockets, meaning that, for VERY LITTLE MONEY, you can have a 3 meg system by adding 2 one meg simms. These SIMMS cost about $150 for 2 meg. Makes you wonder why you just bouth that one meg upgrade, eh? Grin. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4055 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 20:24:08 Sb: #3928-#That Darn Computer! Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Right, low cost upgrade. Well, I still have LOTS of work to do on my Coco 3, so I'm getting usage out of that 1 Meg. And I don't have to tear it out to put in my new machine either ^-) Say, am I about to get a flyer from you in the mail? There is 1 Reply. #: 4066 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jun-90 21:17:06 Sb: #4055-That Darn Computer! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, Lots of corespondence, i hope! Thx for all. Paul #: 3945 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 17:37:55 Sb: #Tomcat Fm: Toni Long 73517,2713 To: Frank Hogg, 70310,317 (X) Hi Frank I got your latest announcement on the TC70 and think I figured it out. The TC70 is a computer. The TC9 is a computer. If I put them together on a KBus I can run Level II and OSK in one "box" without having to switch monitor, disk drives, etc. Am I close? -Toni There is 1 Reply. #: 3953 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 19:53:22 Sb: #3945-#Tomcat Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Toni Long 73517,2713 (X) Not only are you close, you are right on. Not only that but you can have several TC9's on the bus but only one TC70. Parallel processing anyone? Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 4004 S15/Hot Topics 30-May-90 17:48:07 Sb: #3953-Tomcat Fm: Toni Long 73517,2713 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Thanks Frank. Am I good or WHAT? Now fill me in on the multiple TC9's , etc. thanks, Toni #: 3963 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 22:06:48 Sb: #download count Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: sysop (X) I noticed that when{I re-uploaded the file TC70.ANC which replaced the old one that the count started over at 0. It was at 60 before and I like to keep track of these things as I am sure others do too. Is there any way to adjust it? Thanks Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 3967 S15/Hot Topics 29-May-90 22:58:14 Sb: #3963-download count Fm: Mike Ward 76703,2013 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, there's no way to actually tinker with the download count but I've made a note in the description at the end that the previous downloads were at 60+ and counting. Mike #: 4153 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 00:56:37 Sb: #4054-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Ok, ok. DAKS catalogs are 2 much some times. But they do have some good deals, some junk. I know, I live less than a mile from them. I bought 2 microphones with stands from them a few months ago. They seem to work very well, (for what I use them for, they are fine. I have primarily been using them to sample sounds for Studio Works. The cocos A/D circuitry is somewhat noisy, so any small noise induced from the mikes would not be very noticable). I have also bought a lot of the X10 home controllers/modules from them. Unfortunately the coco / or the switching power supply I use makes so much interefence, sometimes I can't controll some of my modules. I have to turn off the coco, before I can turn off the modules. Talk about remote control ! TC #: 4154 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 00:57:35 Sb: #3930-OS9 A/O Uniflex??? Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Sure you don't mean Gabe Kaplan ? TC #: 4162 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 20:02:40 Sb: #the OSK'er Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: all Be sure to take a look at the file OSKER.TXT in the DL #15... It contains information on the new OSK'er magazine as well as a form to get your own copy of the first issue for FREE! There is 1 Reply. #: 4169 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 22:43:32 Sb: #4162-the OSK'er Fm: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 I just went a huntin' fer this and it ain't there. Did you just upload it, bu chance? Zack #: 4170 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 22:45:27 Sb: #4101-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Well, I've started reading Amiga newsgroups, and there is a time-honored 3rd-party gadget called the "FlickerFixer" that goes between the computer and the monitor. How it works I have no idea. You'd think by now someone would be making RGB tubes with longer persistence phosphors, but Amigoids would complain it smears their action games... Yes, would like to hear about this deal -- music involved? mike k #: 4171 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jun-90 22:49:41 Sb: #4061-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, do you know how the Amiga 2000 stacks up against the 1000 and 500? Is it still just a 68000 at 7.5 MHz, or did they push it to 12 or 15? Press !> #: 4172 S15/Hot Topics 09-Jun-90 00:22:07 Sb: #4170-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - the flickerFixer for the Amiga (about $500?) contains a lot of RAM. What it does is to combine the two interlaced fields, and then squirt them out at multisync monitor speed (double normal horizontal scan rate). The A3000 has such a gizmo built in, and word is that CBM plans one for their other machines now. So the fF people had a good time for quite a while, but looks like CBM wants the dough now. Can't blame them. Obviously the same method could be rigged up on the VSC output, if someone wants to do so. #: 4174 S15/Hot Topics 09-Jun-90 00:26:37 Sb: #4171-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - I'm almost postive that the A2000 is still at 7.5Mhz. It's just a fancier case with the Bridgeboard option slots, is all. #: 4191 S15/Hot Topics 09-Jun-90 14:43:22 Sb: #4061-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 ~ Paul; Would you have any problems with my posting the MM/1 and MM/1-OSK news releases on an IBM Newsclip forum? Might be kinda nice to show them that you don't need 8MB to do something useful! ...Jim #: 4192 S15/Hot Topics 09-Jun-90 14:43:24 Sb: #4100-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 ~ Paul; Do you have a (semi-)firm ship date for the MM/1 yet? Just curious, as we'll be getting out your way towards the end of July. ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 4211 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jun-90 01:28:34 Sb: #4192-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, Having seen Paul this past week here in Raleigh (where the MM/1 video was videotaped!) I know that he is off the forum until he returns from a belated honeymoon with his wife.....It may be a day or two before you (or anyone who has written him a message) receive a response from Paul. Dan #: 4239 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jun-90 21:44:14 Sb: #4053-That Darn Computer! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) I heard awhile ago that they will have 2 versions, eventually. 1 with 512K, sold by 'mass merchandisers', and a dealer version with 1 meg, at that pricing. --Eet-- #: 4240 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jun-90 21:48:00 Sb: #4057-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) well, I don't like to 'defend' any computer, really. I like to get accurate info on other systems, and I think other people are the same way. No OSK for the Amiga, yet, other than the Aussie port, which, as far as I can tell, only Kevin Darling has seen. Yes, I hope to see it (I stopped by microware May 22nd, and was intrigued by OS/9). What do you mean by 'grafix'? Drawing packages? CAD packages? games? Raytracers/fractals? I'm considering doing some OS/9 development, myself, someday. --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 4344 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 17:27:12 Sb: #4240-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Jim, I can get you a copy of the Amiga port, just call 202 232 4246. The IMS answering machine in DC is sick and limping, so if I'm out or in a meeting, just try back. Paul #: 4347 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 21:09:34 Sb: #4240-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 OK -- I've been getting an educatioion in Amiga lately, and enjoying it. Seems to be doing better than Atari. My main use for graphics is music notation scoring, but I just like the idea that you can throw an X-Y graph plot or whatever into your Basic or C program any time. It's trivial to do that on a bare Coco with the built-in BASIC, and about as easy on our ports of OS9. A text-only computer is of no interest to me exc epot for word processing, and even that needs grafix for WYSIWYG. Sorry that Aussie OSK isn't going anywhere, tho we MM/1 supporters should be glad, he he. #: 4346 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 21:04:07 Sb: #4172-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) OK -- sounjds like alot of money, plus the price of a high-speed RGB monitor. Methinks I'll just put up witht he flicker -- I can buy a LOT of Bufferin for that money, grin. Maybe someday the MM/3 will have it built in, too.... #: 4242 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jun-90 21:52:13 Sb: #4170-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) not just action games, but animations. Yes, Microware's FlickerFixer (which requires a multisync monitor) fixes the flicker beautifully, but expensively. The new A3000 has a deinterlacer built in. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4349 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 21:13:47 Sb: #4242-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Animations! Well, I don't need Roger and Jessica on my screen just yet, but I can see it for "multi-media" work. But does anyone make a longer-persistence RGB monitor? #: 4241 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jun-90 21:50:06 Sb: #4058-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) well, you could use 1 black line for the stave, and then a lighter color above/below the line, and (say) white for the background. This would reduce the flicker quite a bit. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4348 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 21:11:48 Sb: #4241-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Yes, that would be "anti-aliasing" gray-scale grafix. I've thought of that, and am itching for the equipment to try it out. Also, does a black line on light background flicker as much as the reverse? I'd guess not, but till I get that equipment (MM/1), I'll take your word. #: 4299 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jun-90 12:07:37 Sb: #4191-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, Go ahead, post away! You may wish to give them some more background info on OSK. After all, when Interactive Media and Kenneth-Leigh announce OSK as the MM/1's official operating system (as we did last week), it generates excitement, awe, palpitations. But on the IBm forum, it'll be a differen matter. They'll surely say, "Don't you mean OS/2?!" Ugh. Paul "long way to go to re-education IBMers" Ward #: 4345 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 17:30:02 Sb: #4211-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Dan, And it may be a few days longer until I get my strength back! grin. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4351 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 21:37:40 Sb: #4345-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, You ANIMAL! BTW....I sent your package out UPS Wednesday, look for it to arrive shortly. Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 4355 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jun-90 22:49:49 Sb: #4351-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Thx Dan, for the help -- look forward to seeing the stuff. Does not come with visual time code, eh? Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4361 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jun-90 06:41:37 Sb: #4355-#oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Sorry, but S-VHS doesn't allow that. There are some VISC codes available, but I dont have that machine. Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 4368 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jun-90 11:49:40 Sb: #4361-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Gotcha. Paul Then how should a person log shots? Is there a working solution that you use? #: 4300 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jun-90 12:09:26 Sb: #4192-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, By all means, stop on by the office! We'll have a bunch of stuff up for demos and so on. Ship date is mid-August, as we have always said. Looks like we ahead of schedule (phew!) but that's because we have a large team working around the clock setting up the hardware and exclusive software deals for MM/1 support. Regards, Paul #: 4379 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jun-90 23:07:09 Sb: #4344-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, will do as soon as I'm finished moving. Thanks muchly! --Eet-- #: 4380 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jun-90 23:09:24 Sb: #4348-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Hmm... actually, I _think_ it's the other way around. White line on black seems to flicker less, to me. But, then, I'm weird :) --Eet-- #: 4383 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jun-90 05:52:31 Sb: #MM/1 Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: All MM/1 devs. All MM/1 developers: These are a few of the things that I would like to see implemented on the MM/1 - o - device drivers that time out when I try to do a dir on a non-existent drive, or print to a printer that's not on-line. o - a screen print routine that would only require a 2 key combination to print the contents of the current screen (text OR graphics). o - a cut-'n-paste facility for any listable file. o - a file browser to go with the above. Must be able to QUICKLY move thru the file using the arrow/shifted arrow/pg. up/ own keys and additionally to be able to 'M'ax to the top or bottom. o - a file management utility similar in output to 'dir e', but with a command line at each file to invoke Browse or Edit. The addition of Move and Copy as options would be nice also, but not required. o - a standardized Environment/Profile format where each app could go to get the user's preference for screen colors, fonts, overlay colors, etc. More as I think of them. ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 4390 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jun-90 15:56:47 Sb: #4383-MM/1 Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Keep 'em up. File utils would be from future owners/programmers.. but the system driver stuff is of interest to me now. #: 4401 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jun-90 09:48:59 Sb: #MM/1 s/w Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: MM/ 1 s/w developers All MM/1 developers: Already thought of more MM/1 goodies/standards - (thx Wayne!) o - utility similar to Amiga's workbench setprofile to allow setting system wiue color/text parameters using mouse. (goes along with previous msg.) o - standardized function key usage. Nothing is more confusing to a user than to have non-standard usage of PF keys between apps. Might I suggest, as a start; F1 - help F2 - F3 - quit F4 - F5 - next F6 - F7 - scroll up F8 - scroll down F9 - swFp screens F10- scroll left F11- scroll right F12- retreive (last cmd) ESC- cancel select ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 4415 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jun-90 20:44:27 Sb: #4401-#MM/1 s/w Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Hmm... mightn't F1 - help be a bit redundant? The Amiga Keyboard has a Help key already, and I had thought that the 'AT' 101 keyboard did as well (?). Only reason I point that out is that almost nobody uses the Help key. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4421 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jun-90 22:28:16 Sb: #4415-MM/1 s/w Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Umm... no, I don't think the PC keyboards have a Help key. ? I've always said that ALL keyboards should have a Help, Yes, and No keys... at the least. Everything else is icing . #: 4440 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jun-90 11:56:38 Sb: #4380-oh THAT Darn Computer Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) He he, my eyes are pretty weird too. Just have to wait and "see" for myself. I know some Amigoids really complain of headaches and all sorts of gripes, while others say they hardly notice flicker. Maybe humans are like Coco 3s -- some have sparklies and BLOBs, some don't....grin. #: 4472 S15/Hot Topics 18-Jun-90 20:06:32 Sb: Motorola Supports CD-I Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all (edited) LONDON - Motorola Semiconductor Products Monday announced their intent to provide CD-I silicon chip sets to hardware manufacturers worldwide. This latest development coincides with the Multimedia Conference on Interactive CD hosted by Philips, Sony, Matsushita and Polygram. The chip set includes the MC68340 32-bit microprocessor, a highly integrated solution for graphics applications, plus dedicated still video and video processing devices. A part of this set is a full screen, full motion decompression processor for the CD-I standard. By providing a global source of high quality silicon, Motorola aims to ease the development of hardware products conforming to the CD-I standard. This will accelerate the acceptance of CD-I as a Multimedia standard and add momentum to its rate of growth as the next major consumer product innovation. Availability of this revolutionary video processing device is timed to coincide with major CD-I equipment launches in 1991. More details will be made available following the meeting of the MPEG committee in September 1990. (MPEG - The Motion Picture Experts Group is a joint ISO/CCITT standard committee, tasked with defining a global standard for video compression.) Over 100 companies have signed up to support CD-I, the majority of them developing the innovative software titles which will drive consumer and pro usage. Motorola will be assisting Philips IMS and their partners to realize CD-I as a global success in consumer electronics and Multimedia computing. Based on this latest announcement, the hardware companies will be able to accelerate their product developments, while guaranteeing conformance to the standard. This standardization is critical for such a global consumer product, guaranteeing that any disk bought anywhere in the world will play on any manufacturer's hardware. #: 4484 S15/Hot Topics 18-Jun-90 23:28:32 Sb: #4415-#MM/1 s/w Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) ~ Jim; The Amiga designers did a good job on the hardware, I'll agree! There's lots of things about it that I really like - just hope the MM/1 equals or exceeds it. The PS/2 keyboard (AT 101 style) does NOT have a HELP key. I've been using one for about 18 months now, and it's really well thought out and easy to learn. The one that I got (don't remember the mfg.) has the large ENTER key, left/right CTRL and ALT keys, ESC in the upper left, 12 PF keys in groups of 4 across the top, a keypad off to the right, etc. The I*M world has adopted the F1 key as the standard for HELP in the past few years... all the systems that I use at work, with the exception of areas of PROFS use F1, as do almost all the DOS based programs that I've come in contact with. I'm not saying that we need to stick to this standard, only that we should adopt SOME standards for all the MM/1 software that is bound to appear. If, at the same time, we could remain compatible with the user interface, it would probably make the computer easier to learn for DOS types. ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 4487 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jun-90 02:30:25 Sb: #4484-MM/1 s/w Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Oh, I agree. If there isn't a help key, there should be a standard key for it. --Eet-- #: 4539 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jun-90 00:15:53 Sb: #4390-MM/1 Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, Actually, we should be getting a machine out to a guy who has a very nice file utilitity thingie. So don't worry 'bout that stuff. BTW, I saw a reference today in UNIX Review about ANSI standard display codes for text attributes. Give me a call about that! Paul #: 4546 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jun-90 11:42:57 Sb: #Special deal Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: All All, Please take a look in the Hot Topics section. We at IMS and KLE have finally made public a private offering originally made to subscribers to our insider mailing. The offering is for $50 off an MM/1 base system (or better system, too; the MM/1 kit is excluded). Let me know here, in email, or at 202 232 4246 if you have questions. If you WANT to follow up on the special offer, call 1 800 866 9084. Thanks for all. Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 4554 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jun-90 23:03:02 Sb: #4546-#Special deal Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Read the file... Nice to hear that it'll have a C compiler with it... When do you expect to be able to ship the Millenium? Also, what keyboard would you recommend with it? (I was gonna ask about a portable version, but, I'll call you RSN, I promise :) --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4570 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jun-90 23:19:05 Sb: #4554-Special deal Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Yeah, call us about the portable idea. I would hate to have you duplicate any efforts here. BTW, the MM/1 is on schedule, should be ready at the end of the Summer, as planned. Call 202 232 4246 for details. Paul #: 4594 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jun-90 08:32:29 Sb: #4546-Special deal Fm: JOHN R. WAINWRIGHT 72517,676 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Hey Paul! The deal looks good. I'm thinking. Meanwhile, what is this about a "KIT". I saw that word once before in connection with the MM1, but I don't recall seeing any details. Can I buy a schematic and a bag of parts (well - maybe some instructions too, I'm not THAT good as a "hardware hacker"). If I want to put a hard drive on the MM1, I must get the second board, right? And it must be a SCSI type? Is there any way to tie my existing Burke & Burke interface into the basic MM1? Decisions, decisions, - it's a good thing I don't have any hair to tear out. John Wainwright #: 4614 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jun-90 17:59:24 Sb: #4594-#Special deal Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: JOHN R. WAINWRIGHT 72517,676 (X) John, Yeah, we have a "kit" -- the populated board with software. You have to get your own case and PS and HD floppy. Cost is $659 -- a good deal if you already have your own case, PS, and HD floppy! Hard drives require the second board, but the second board gets you NOT ONLY the hard disk host adapter, but a ton o' stuff, including stereo sampling/ playback ports, mice ports, parallel ports, serial port, etc. Think of the second board as stereo music/voice synthesizer expandable to 9 meg -and just incidentally a hard disk interface that allows you up to seven SCSI devices. You CAN use the B & B if you 1) backup your B & B 2) get a SCSI controller card (cheap at $80) 3) reformat the drive 4) put your stuff back on the drive. How you put the drive in the case depends on a few things -- give me a call. Best, Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4700 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jun-90 20:43:25 Sb: #4614-#Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, how come you have to reformat the hard drive when converting from B&B to SCSI? Is that 'cuz MSDOS does it differently than OSK? Say, your kit is just over $100 less than the ready-to-rock-it. I think I'll just get my case, PS, and floppy from you. (P.S.: Our OS9 Club meets tomorrow nite. Guess what they won't see. Oh well...mike k). There are 3 Replies. #: 4758 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jun-90 22:53:43 Sb: #4700-#Special deal Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Interjecting reply for Paul: It's necessary to reformat the hard drive because B&B uses the 512 byte sector format since it's a PC controller, whereas it is more common to use the 256 byte sector format with OS9, because SCSI does support it. If the driver is written to handle it, it is possible to set up SCSI to use a 512 byte format under OS9 using the same 2 sectors in every 1 on disk format that the B&B does. However, I personally would suggest against trying to convert a B&B drive to use on the MM1. It requires you obtain a SCSI controller, and steal the hard drive from your CoCo. Imbedded SCSI drives (that is, with a controller built into the drive) are much faster and more reliable. And, they're not all that expensive anymore, as they are fast becoming the preferred type of drive (even amoung PC'ers) because of their speed, reliablity, and large sizes. My recommendation to people is to leave your CoCo intact and invest in a better drive for the new machine... StG There are 3 Replies. #: 4759 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jun-90 23:08:29 Sb: #4758-#Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) The SCSI hard disk on my MM/1 prototype uses 512-byte sectors... no tricks needed these days as RBF handles whatever size you specify. Does mean that software relying on 256-byte sectors (dEd for one) doesn't work, tho. There is 1 Reply. #: 4799 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jul-90 11:44:03 Sb: #4759-#Special deal Fm: Doug DeMartinis 72245,1400 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, Just read your note about dEd and SCSI and 512 byte sectors. I was under the impression that despite using 512 byte sectors at the hardware level, the logical sectors were still 256 bytes. Here is the dmode of the SCSI drive I'm using now: DD ctrlrid=1 lun=0 cyls=2510 hds=7 sectrk=36 sectrk0=36 alloc=64 ilv=1 step=7 park=2510 secsize=512 trys=7 dEd has no problem with this. I'm using OSK 2.2. Did 2.3 change some of this? There is 1 Reply. #: 4804 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jul-90 14:11:12 Sb: #4799-#Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Doug DeMartinis 72245,1400 (X) Doug, I haven't kept up that well, but I was under the impression that I'm using a variable-size RBF which doesn't break up the LSNs into 256-byte sectors. That's what I was told by a friend, after I tried using dEd on my 512-byte sector HD (on MM/1)... it kinda worked, kinda didn't... and almost lost LSN 0 it seemed. Maybe not. I'm afraid to experiment any more . Hmm... if you read/write 256 bytes at a time, why shouldn't it work? Seems like it oughta, no matter what the sector size is. Strange. I shall ask. - kev There is 1 Reply. #: 4820 S15/Hot Topics 02-Jul-90 01:33:13 Sb: #4804-#Special deal Fm: Doug DeMartinis 72245,1400 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) I can understand you being leery after LSN 0 problems. I have had it overwritten 3 times when somehow a file descriptor got partially zeroed out so it pointed to LSN 0 as the first file sector. That was the impetus behind re-writing dEd. Let me know if you find anything else out. I had some problems with the version a sent you earlier, but nothing like overwriting disks. There is 1 Reply. #: 4822 S15/Hot Topics 02-Jul-90 01:54:55 Sb: #4820-Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Doug DeMartinis 72245,1400 (X) Yah, I should keep an alternate LSN0 around with appropriate offset in some descriptor. Not a perfect solution, but would at least let me navigate parts if need be. I should be getting a HD for my MM/1 soon (got one on the prototype), in which case I won't mind screwing with the prototype so much . thx - kev #: 4840 S15/Hot Topics 02-Jul-90 19:59:33 Sb: #4758-#Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) OK Scott, that sounds like the right attitude -- along with not trying to steal your floppies, 1 Meg, GIME, and ohther things from your Coco as the Tomcat board requires. Well, we'll see how the bank account holds up. --mike k PS: Yeah, I've been watching for SCSI drives in the COmputer Shopper. There are 2 Replies. #: 4857 S15/Hot Topics 03-Jul-90 22:33:07 Sb: #4840-#Special deal Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) I wonder how many GIME chips are left around? Last I checked with National Parts, it wasn't that many. Interesting. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5048 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 20:15:49 Sb: #4857-#Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Well, considering you're likely to scrounge your Coco3 for everything else, why not. Me, I'd rather save it for the kid (or whoever plays games around here, he he). Oh yes, and Umuse3 support too! Actually I'd have exprected Tandy to have a whole warehouse full of GIMEs somewhere. But they'll just grind them up for cement out of spite. Say -- Coco Club meeting this Thursday here, wonder what's on the program. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 5073 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 12:22:00 Sb: #5048-Special deal Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - If you're having a club meeting on a given date, at least give us TWO WEEKS -- we're cranking out development machines as fast as the chips come in, and an MM/1 doesn't sit here more than a few days before it's out the door. That whole machinery would have to be rearranged to get you guys a loaner for a club meeting. Would your club consider a special meeting? Paul #: 4888 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 06:33:55 Sb: #4840-#Special deal Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Before you buy one (SCSI drive) from the Shopper, give me a call. I can probably get it for less through my wholesale connections. StG There is 1 Reply. #: 5049 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 20:17:03 Sb: #4888-Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 OK Scott -- thanks for the info. --mike k #: 4987 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 12:07:33 Sb: #4758-Special deal Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 True Paul, but an ESDI drive would be faster, less command overhead, but you can usually only connect two ESDI drives to one contoller, instead of 7 scsi's TC #: 4760 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jun-90 23:10:49 Sb: #4700-#Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike - different controllers put data on disk in different ways. There's no standard, because after all you can't move the hard disk platters. So it's because the controllers are different that you'd have to reformat. Kinda like VHS vs Beta tapes... both record, but in different internal formats. There are 2 Replies. #: 4767 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 08:07:46 Sb: #4760-#Special deal Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, Would you happen to know if a Magnavox monitor with the model number CM8764074G would work on the MM-1? Right now it's being used on a Commodore 128. Thanks in advance. --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 4780 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 17:08:58 Sb: #4767-#Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin - I don't recog that number. If it's an analog RGB monitor then it should be able to work. Do you have any other info on it? Pinouts, etc? The CM-8's are on sale right now pretty cheaply, I hear, also. best - kev There is 1 Reply. #: 4794 S15/Hot Topics 01-Jul-90 02:45:32 Sb: #4780-Special deal Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Hmm. I'm not really sure if it is analog. My friend said it had a covered port labeled LIN RGB, but I'm not sure if that is analog, or even if there really is a port under the punch-out area. Thanks for the help. --Colin #: 4786 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 21:36:56 Sb: #4760-#Special deal Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Dear Kevin Darling (sir); I have a question for you regarding that dataCASE project we discussed in conference the other night... what is the specs for the floppy drive the MM/1 uses? (5.25 or 3.5?) is it PC compatible? Could I share the drive with my Amiga/bridgecard drive? Y'all are discussing using SCSI drives with the MM/1, so I assume it's possible? Any advice on how I could get a SCSI drive to work with the Millenium (snuck it in there :)? Say, for example, a 65 meg Seagate ST277N? Awaiting Breathless Reply; --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 4791 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 22:29:17 Sb: #4786-Special deal Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) DoM Eet, You can use either 3.5 or 5.25 PC-style floppy drives, normal or hi-density. Up to four of them, I believe. It comes with one 3.5 hidens drive (useable in normal density mode also, of course). Switching those between two computers would involve the "usual" stuff... like a 17-pole switch or so. Accessing MSDOS disks will be possible, so you could manually move the disk from one drive to another, too. SCSI should be easier. I could see sharing a HD between the machines... altho that would mean partitioning it into PC/OS9 sections to prevent trouble. Hmm. There is a PCDOS file manager for OS9, but I cringe at the thought of using it for normal OS9 HD operations. So personally I'd put two HDs on there: one for the Bridgeboard side, the other for the OS9 side. If you have the second (I/O expansion) board on the MM/1, it's just a matter of using a 50-pin cable to hook a SCSI drive to the computer's SCSI header. Any size HD is fine. I know of people with two 1-gigabyte drives online. Did I answer what you meant? best - kev PS: a friend noticed that a place called the Treasure Chest (?) in Computer Shopper had 85meg SCSI hard disks for about $370! Sounds like a deal! #: 4985 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 12:05:39 Sb: #4700-#Special deal Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike Wwhere does your os9 club meet? I have been looking for a group to get involved with here in LA, but no dice. ANyone know of any groups in the area (Os-9 only ) ? TC There are 2 Replies. #: 4990 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 13:43:47 Sb: #4985-#Special deal Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 (X) Unless Mike has moved since the last time I saw him, clubs he attends are probably in the Chicago area. There's an RCIS BBS in Huntington Beach--is that near you? (Don't know my CA geography, as you can no doubt tell. Sigh.) There is 1 Reply. #: 5026 S15/Hot Topics 09-Jul-90 19:18:44 Sb: #4990-Special deal Fm: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Jim Yes, Huntington Beach is very near. I'll have to give their BBs a ring. Thanx. TC #: 5050 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 20:18:51 Sb: #4985-Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: TONY CAPPELLINI 76370,2104 Unless you work for United....well, we meet in a library near CHicago. I know of active grtroups in Oklahoma City and N. Carolina. But none in the Land of Multi-Media -- mike k. #: 4776 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 13:53:07 Sb: #Woe is 9 Fm: Richard Ries 76057,3534 To: Kevin Darling Kev- I just got back from my honeymoon and see all types of dreadful things coming from the UG newsletter. To wit, Microware has discontinued OS9 Personell, and the Coco has a shaky future. (The second is nothing new.) Could you let us Coco-ers in on what the OS9 Professional is like? How does it compare with LI && LII ? (Specifically does it have windowing like LII ?) Thanks a lot, Rich Ries There is 1 Reply. #: 4788 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 21:48:25 Sb: #4776-Woe is 9 Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Richard Ries 76057,3534 (X) Rich - Congrats on your marriage! Actually, things are looking pretty good. Microware has taken an increased interest in seeing OS-9 used on personal computers, and we have neat hardware upgrade paths becoming available soon. I think MW discontinued Personal OS9 simply because buying it with Basic was cheaper than buying Basic by itself. Marketing musta freaked out . But the OS-9 version for the new machines includes the C compiler and Basic, which is good news. The windowing I'm working on right now. Started from scratch only in March, so it's still got a ways to go; and I'm sure we'll see additions posted here as time goes by. But I think you'll like it. I'm sure others can give their own impressions of OSK, but in general the main feeling is "fast" and "lots of room" . For example, I just os9gen'd a 57K bootfile onto a floppy disk, from a hard disk modules dir and bootlist, in under 15 seconds. A circles gfx demo which takes 30 seconds on a CoCo takes under 5 seconds on the MM/1. Etc. You'll feel right at home, too, with the commands... altho they have more options. Like I use Dsave a lot with: dsave -er /d0/backup -d=900627 which means copy the current dir, Execute the generated commands, and Rewrite any files with the same name, to the /d0/backup directory. And only do this on files with dates equal or greater than June 27, 1990. In other words... you'll be excited, I promise. kev #: 4779 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 16:06:31 Sb: #IMPORTANT- MM/1 Fm: SCOTT HOWELL 70270,641 To: Kevin Darling Please send me some information on the MM/1 computer. The company I work for is starting a special project which I cannot reveal at this time involving the use of a low-cost 68000 computer. The market that we are aiming at really needs, and wants, these devices To give you an example they tried to use an Amiga for this system but found it to be TOO EXPENSIVE for the market that wants this device. Please send me information like technical specs, graphics capabilities, costs, and the like. SEND TO: SCOTT HOWELL 107 Winchester Tr. Smyrna, Ga 30080. I will forward it to the necessary people in charge. thanks/ There is 1 Reply. #: 4781 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jun-90 17:13:11 Sb: #4779-IMPORTANT- MM/1 Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: SCOTT HOWELL 70270,641 (X) Hi Scott - take a look in Libary 15, and download the news releases... in those will also be the makers, whom you can contact for more info if you need it (their number/address is in there). Good luck with the project! Can you say anything about it? - kev #: 4860 S15/Hot Topics 04-Jul-90 00:08:42 Sb: #TOMCAT Uploads Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: sysop (X) I have upload 2 new messages to DL15. The first is a question and answer file (20K 10 pages) on the questions I have collected for the TOMCAT. This thing kept getting bigger and it began to look as if I would never finish it. I decided to make this version 1. Thanks frank There is 1 Reply. #: 4861 S15/Hot Topics 04-Jul-90 00:09:57 Sb: #4860-#TOMCAT Uploads Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 I also uploaded a file called TCVMM.CMP which is a comparision of the TOMCAT and the MM1. Took a chance that this would be useful. Hope Paul doesn't put out a contract on me. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 4902 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 13:21:31 Sb: #4861-#TOMCAT Uploads Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) ~ Frank, I don't think Paul would contract out on you (snicker) After all you two are taking different approaches on the new machines and each has its advantages and disadvantages. What one person would see as not practical on one machine the other fills the bill (IE: yours allows users to continue to use all there current CoCo hardware and later decide to upgrade) where the MM/1 replaces most of it (but some expensive parts are preserved thank god!) Some won't want to move to OSK or OS9 so yours allows RSDOS compatability since it is a CoCo3 that is souped up and fixed the brain-damaged parts (like reul serial ports and not a bitbanger and a real keyboard w/o expensive adaptors) but the MM/1 is a more one-piece system with more standard hardware for those who will take the jump sooner... so in a sense your nrt fighting each other. with TWO new machines it will sastify a wider variety of users and benefit us ALL in the end. Do you see my point? Mike Guzzi There is 1 Reply. #: 4904 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 13:38:21 Sb: #4902-TOMCAT Uploads Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, Actually, Frank's RSDOS compatibility needs some explanation. Paul #: 4871 S15/Hot Topics 04-Jul-90 10:57:24 Sb: #Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, it's _very_ important that Kenneth-Leigh get ahold of Bill Hawes and that they _get_ a version of Rexx for the MM/1. I have a feeling that BASIC will become very... passe' in the not-too-distant future. --Eet-- There are 2 Replies. #: 4877 S15/Hot Topics 04-Jul-90 21:48:47 Sb: #4871-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Whilst you have beginners (and folks accustomed to developing software quickly in Basic), you'll always have Basic around, never to become passe'. Personal opinion here. Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 4901 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 13:21:11 Sb: #4877-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) ~ Dan, What is so bad about BASIC? I use BASIC09 and its obvoisly not like 'standard' basic. My BBS is programmed in Basic09 and is very nice. basic09 has alot of nice features and is fast and powerful. I am not trying to put you down or anything but I think we need to distingush between Basic and Basic09. Mike Guzzi There are 3 Replies. #: 4903 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 13:37:10 Sb: #4901-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, Hold on! Dan was on YOUR side! And Basic09 is a different creature than BASIC. You might want to post your BBS number to let people try out a BBS that runs on a CoCo using Basic09. Best, Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 4953 S15/Hot Topics 07-Jul-90 11:46:46 Sb: #4903-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Ok well I was just expressing my opinion about basic09. if anyone wants to see my BBS which currently runs on a CoCo3 using basic09 try mine at 717-586-2771 300-2400 baud 8/N/1 24hrs. this BBS will be ported to the MM/1 If one knows how to program in basic09 then the BBS can be done. those who say Basic09 is no good for a BBS simply doesn't know how to use basic09 to the fullest potential (like I don't know much about C right now but I am working on it) There is 1 Reply. #: 4955 S15/Hot Topics 07-Jul-90 11:59:32 Sb: #4953-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, You are absolutely right! I have written a BBS in Basic09 and it currently stands at about 150k in I-code. All the drivers and everything was written in Basic09. C is nice for short things so you don't have to have RunB tagging along, but when it comes to the big stuff, I'll take Basic09 any day! There are 2 Replies. #: 5052 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 20:28:55 Sb: #4955-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 (X) Sorry, I take the opposite view -- Basic09 is great for quick throwaway programs, but for big, serious efforts, you need C. My feelings stem from the lack of global variables and macros and constatns in B09, its fascist type checking, and the deep breaths you take whenever daring to use any object-code routines (tho I've learned to beat that by LOADing gfx2, inkey, etc.). Oh yes, no pointers in B09 either. Even Pascal (blechh) has those. Of course this is all my personal opinions, grin. --mike k There are 3 Replies. #: 5055 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 21:35:14 Sb: #5052-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Aha! But basic09 programs are quicker to debug, and won't blow down the house like C programs can . And basic09 doesn't type check when passing vars... you can pass a 32-char string to a routine expecting a 4x8 byte array and it'll work fine. Pointers you could fudge, but not prettily. Then again, I can read basic programs easier ;-). Each to their own. hehe -kd There is 1 Reply. #: 5078 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 14:11:54 Sb: #5055-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) 'blow down the house'? Are BASIC programs of equivalent 'power' to C programs easier to debug? I don't think so, unless you're a _good_ BASIC programmer and comment the h*ll out of your code. I've seen some nightmarish code in BASIC on the C64... looked like I would imagine an APL program would look like --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5087 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 17:05:35 Sb: #5078-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Eet - Yeah, well, C64 programs were never known for their readability . Agree, comments make good sense on both Basic/C programs... and the use of good variable names. Anytime a programmer drops back to using "i,j,x" for every variable, he's writing hard-to-read code ;-). I think you'd find that most Basic09 source code is commented (and has good variable names) just as well as most C source code is. The big diff to me is that development is faster using an interactively semi-compiled language such as Basic09... you can try stuff out quicker. For instance, when debugging the circle algorithm for the gfx driver, I first wrote it up in Basic using integer math. I could quickly (very!) try out different changes until it worked perfectly. Then the translation from Basic into 68K asm was a piece of cake. Really. Sort of like: move.w ycord(a2),d1 REPEAT Loop: move.w foo,d0 xcord = foo * ratio mulu.w ratio(a2),d0 run Plot(xcord,ycord) bsr Plot UNTIL ycord = 0 tst.w d1 bne.s Loop I guess I'm acting the part of a C compiler, except my code will be smaller ;-). So for quick utils at least, I still write in Basic. I can mess around until it works right, and without fear of crashing the machine with stray pointers . Granted, if I were more adept at C, I'd probably zing out utils in it, instead. - kev #: 5065 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 07:55:07 Sb: #5052-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 A little info, please. How does Microware BASIC (like that comes with the MM/1) compare to BASIC-09? Any thoughts/comments? --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 5091 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 19:57:37 Sb: #5065-Is Basic out of date? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 It's the same, save that REAL is IEEE double-precision floating point, and INTEGER is a four-byte integer. #: 5068 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 09:57:56 Sb: #5052-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Although I have *NEVER* written a line of code in Microware Basic (OSK) or Basic09 (on my CoCo), I *have* ported and written tons of "C" programs on both systems. Because I use a mixture of systems with and without memory management under OSK, I have seen how easy it is to write code in "C" with pointers that point out to sea and "get away" with it. It is amazing how many programs (right here in our dl's) are being used every day by OSK'ers that are potentially causing sporadic and random system problems because of blown pointers that the 68000 cannot catch. I know because my 68030 system with SSM invoked (system security) refuses to run them. With source, the fixes are almost always trivial. I believe Kevin's comment about the relative "safety" of B09 vs "C" has merit. I am not trying to scare people away from "C" - it is all I use (except for assembler under dire circumstances). I dislike systems which require a runtime module (runb) to operate. It's been so long since I wrote anything in Basic (about 14 years) that I can't remember any of it anyway. Think of this as just a reminder that, in "C" and assembler, you can write bugs into your code that will never be caught by most people's systems. Mark (Mr. Desk Check Your Code) Wuest #: 5075 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 13:22:03 Sb: #4955-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 (X) ~ Well the main thing is if you know how to program basic09! If you write spagetti code like Color Basic, Basic09 isn't any faster and hogs memory. However if you use the loops and take advantage of its file handling and modularity a good BBS can be done in basic09 without dirty code or forking 1000 shells. Now with Basic09 on the MM/1 (I posted a file with my observations so far) we have no barrier and multi-tasking is much better so a BBS could really fly! The only part of my BBS thats in M/L is a ansi translator since I did need the absolute most speed. yet interfacing it to Basic09 was cake! Basic09 can really call other modules of any language and is easy to pass variables back & forth. I see it as the best basic I ever used! Mike There is 1 Reply. #: 5076 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 13:58:23 Sb: #5075-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 While writing the BBS I'm currently working on, I overcame one of my major obstacles in writing large programs in BASIC09 - that is, the 64k barrier. Bill Brady helped me understand how to overcome that. And, since I have, my BBS has really taken off. I can do so much more with it that the one I wrote in RS-DOS. About the only time I ever use line numbers is ON-GOTO (I like C's switch command) and when I need something to jump to another point in the program and don't want to try and figure out how to loop it correctly. And, of course, for a BBS, I use GOSUBs for I/O. Floyd #: 4906 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 13:50:47 Sb: #4901-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Hey, I don't want to put BASIC down at all (I'll leave that to the better qualified), just IMAO, it won't last much longer. Certain .. dialects are being dropped from various platforms, so I've heard. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4913 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 19:24:23 Sb: #4906-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Nope. I disagree. Basic (an easier language other than Pascal, C, etc.) whether it is Basic09, IBM's GWBASIC, etc...will be around as long as there are people who are in the beginning stage of programming (and as mentioned earlier, who are proficient in Basic, and can write a quick utility in it). It's just too darn easy to write understandable english words (like CIRCLE, or LINE, etc.) and give it co-ordinates when you're using your computer for the first several months, than to figure out why your C program crashes because you used a pointer when you shouldn't have, or forgot to declare some variables in Pascal. Dan There are 4 Replies. #: 4924 S15/Hot Topics 06-Jul-90 02:09:15 Sb: #4913-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) yes, all that is very true... which is why a lot of programmers that start with BASIC have trouble later on... I learned BASIC first, and I _don't_ mean to put it down any... You're probably right that BASIC in some form will linger on for some time _after_ it's "demise".. --Eet-- There is 1 Reply. #: 4925 S15/Hot Topics 06-Jul-90 03:21:21 Sb: #4924-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim - you're very right... Basic as a first language can make for a lot of unlearning later on . Learning a good structured Basic, however, can help with learning Pascal, C, and asm down the line. My first language was Fortran, btw. ick! #: 4984 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 12:04:38 Sb: #4913-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Microsoft has now bundled a QuickBasic interpreter with MS-DOS 5.0 (Yes 5.0). I've never seen the interpreter, but have used the QuickBasic compiler. This strikes me as a shot in the arm for BASIC since QuickBasic addresses many of the criticisms against previous versions. I hope that bundling BASIC with the operating system cathes on again. I provides the user with an easy way to add functionality to their PERSONAL system even if it only comes from typing listings from magazines. There are 2 Replies. #: 4997 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 15:12:03 Sb: #4984-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 John, Interesting that you should mention bundled BASICs ... The MM/1 comes with Microware's Basic. Also, I would be interested in knowing a bit more about your experiences with QuickBasic. Care to post a few editorial comments about QB? Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5080 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 14:12:16 Sb: #4997-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 I _still_ think Rexx would be better... anybody working on an authoring system for the MM/1, btw? Have you gotten ahold of Bill Hawes yet? --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5053 S15/Hot Topics 10-Jul-90 20:33:46 Sb: #4984-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 From what Paul Ward's been announcing, bundling Basic with the OS has indeed caught on again, big grin! Throwing in C doesn't hurt either! Actually I was amazed at what I could do with plain old RS-Basic. It was very fast to throw together a quick program utility. No variable declarations or opening keywords as in B09 or C. #: 5074 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 13:21:32 Sb: #4913-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) ~ Yes and to point out with Basic09 is that its very much like standard Basic in the fact it has easy to understand commands and syntax and has the english commands with gfx2 (like circle, line, etc..) plus a wonderful debugger for tracing problem code (which can't be done in C but i THINK pascal has something like it) then in the end you can PACK it and have a compiled module. Basic09 in my view represents the best of both worlds to have a flexible language and making quick changes and compiled code for speed. Mike Guzzi #: 5079 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 14:12:04 Sb: #4913-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Possibly... but then there are these neat, new things called, "authoring systems" out now... --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 4911 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 19:18:13 Sb: #4901-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, Actually, I was supporting Basic! I think, at least for me, quick projects are best done when completed in Basic. Other projects are best done in C when the Libraries are only available in C (and this, mostly on other computers). Some basics are slower than a turtle, on the other hand, others are as quick as other languages. I think the person's use of any language is what they are comfortable with and what works, and as I mentioned in the other message, I doubt seriously that Basic will become "passe'", as was remarked. Dan #: 4910 S15/Hot Topics 05-Jul-90 18:29:14 Sb: #4871-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, Rexx would be nice. Also looking at other IPC mechanisms. There's no Rexx manual uploaded anywhere, is there? Basic: heh-heh, everyone has been saying that it's passe' for quite some time now. Almost as dirty a word as "goto" in some forums . Still, more and more people are writing into magazines wondering why it's put down... as it still often is the first language learned by newcomers. More importantly to this forum, OS-9 Basic is held in pretty high regard here. Unlike many basics, Basic09 is very Pascal-like, very fast, and very useful. It's not fancy (no built-in machine-specific commands), but very flexible. Most BBS programs are written in it, many applications (including word processors) are also, and anything you write in it can become yet another command module to preload and/or call off disk. I myself, an avowed assembly language nut, write most of my quickie utilities in basic09, as it's far easier to write and interactively debug with, than C or asm are. So while many people are getting into C here, Basic09 remains the structured language of choice for many other OS9ers. See, we've been around so long that passing fashions don't affect us . If we see something new, we chew it over for a few years first, to see if it's the "right" way. Weird, eh? There is 1 Reply. #: 5081 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 14:12:34 Sb: #4910-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, I've never worked with BASIC09, so I refuse to make an specific comments about it. As for a Rexx manual, not that I know of... you really should go talk to Bill Hawes, tho. (maybe a formal co with him here in OS9 Forum? nah, that'd be to AmigaTechish ... btw, as I recall, there are some old IPC example programs over in AmigaTech that you might want to check out. I _think_ in lib 9, but maybe lib 13. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5001 S15/Hot Topics 08-Jul-90 15:31:37 Sb: #Special! QUICK! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: all All, A few days ago, I posted a special offer on $50 off of a preordered MM/1. Response has been very nice, thank you. However, because of that, we are cancelling the offer as of July 20. So, you stragglers out there need to check out the upload in Hot Topics, see what the deal is, and ponder. Thanks! Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5082 S15/Hot Topics 11-Jul-90 14:12:44 Sb: #5001-Special! QUICK! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Hmm... does the $50 affect developer kits? --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5108 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 07:53:45 Sb: #5091-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Colin Smith 73777,1360 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) So, I could take a piece of BASIC-09 code and just type it in in Microware BASIC? Great! I had fears of MS-DOS BASIC in my new computer!! --Colin #: 5120 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 17:05:08 Sb: #5065-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, Talk to Kev and Mike Guzzi about that comparison. It's very interesting. I suspect that, the way MM/1 code is shaping up, that Basic will still be an excellent choice for quick work. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5126 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 20:15:15 Sb: #5120-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 If Rexx isn't available --Eet-- (btw, is there an OS/9-OSK equivalent of TAPCIS/Navigator/Whap! ?) Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5121 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 17:09:16 Sb: #5068-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 (X) Mark, What is your complaint against runb, and how does your opinion on this mesh with CIO -- it is a runtime module of sorts, too. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5151 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 10:03:54 Sb: #5121-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, We generally *do* have cio loaded (I think the MW shell uses it!). We generally do *not* link with -i (to use cio) except for occasional use utilities. For more than one copy of a program, it uses more memory than having the cio stuff linked in because it grabs so much memory itself. The key is, I am not required to have either cio or math to write programs in "C". I am required to have runb to even use someone else's programs in Basic. If *I* do not have Basic, then I do not have runb, and I cannot run programs written in MW Basic. cio and math come with all versions of os9 that I know of. In general, cio saves about (I didn't check this, just memory) 12k of text space and uses about 8k more data space. With one copy of a program running, it saves about 4k of memory. With two copies, it costs 4k, then 8k per copy. I've never checked math. I guess the point is that programs written in "C" are much easier to run since you do not need to buy "C" to run programs written in it. Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 5160 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 16:43:13 Sb: #5151-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 Mark - that's a very good point (that RunB isn't included as standard on all OS9 systems). Seems like MW oughta include all runtime modules. #: 5115 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 16:29:43 Sb: #5080-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Rexx is worth looking into for the IPC element, naturally! We're negotiating now with TWO top Amiga authoring companies whose products don't really overlap. No, haven't gotten a chance to get ahold of Mr. Hawes. I'll take a moment now and write him a note. Thx for the reminder! Say, Jim, you wanted an Amiga OSK port, right? I'd like to know which Amiga you're using, and what size hard drive to make sure you get a system that boots up with nary a catch. thx. Paul Ward There is 1 Reply. #: 5123 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 19:36:41 Sb: #5115-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 You bet I want an Amiga OSK port! I've got an Amiga 2000 (4.2 revision motherboard, if that means anything to anybody ), 3 meg, the 1 meg Agnus graphics chip, and a 65 meg SCSI harddrive. (2 of the 3 meg are on a Supra memory expansion card, the HD controller is called an Overdrive by Pacific peripherals). It's a pretty standard system, about equivalent to the A2000HD, except my drive is 65 meg and the stock one is 40 meg. Think it'll work? btw, was talking to Kevin last night.... read this month's computer shopper... page 420. Nuff said :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5119 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 17:03:15 Sb: #5078-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Let's not even mention ANY commodore basic in the same paragraph as Basic09 or OSK/Basic. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5125 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 19:37:02 Sb: #5119-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Hmph... Okay ... Can I mention AmigaBASIC in the same paragraph with BASIC09 or OSK/BASIC? ... no, it's not by CBM... it's by Microsoft (and it's powerful, but a b*tch to use) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5130 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 21:10:27 Sb: #5125-Is Basic out of date? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) It's not re-entrant, either. #: 5116 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 16:31:14 Sb: #5082-#Special! QUICK! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Sorry, the developer's kits are already discounted 25%, and any profit margin is eaten up with the support costs and the hand assembly time. The $50 deal applies only the the mass manufactured systems. Drop me email and ask about leasing. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5124 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 19:36:53 Sb: #5116-Special! QUICK! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 'sokay, I was only curious.. I didn't see _how_ you could offer that to developers in addition to the 25% off. Will email you about leasing info. Thanks. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5132 S15/Hot Topics 12-Jul-90 22:04:46 Sb: #GUI Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: 76703,4227 (X) Kev, I'm working on QnA #2 and one of the questions that came up was memory usage. My question is how much memory the GUI requires, ie: min and max etc etc. thanks frank There is 1 Reply. #: 5142 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 06:22:13 Sb: #5132-#GUI Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 Oh gracious. Hmmmm. The driver is just under 8K at the moment. Each device takes 512 bytes of static storage. In the final version, I estimate the driver to expand out to maybe 15K+. About the size of the coco code. The actual window manager will add on some, but not much. So the program code is nothing compared to the memory required for video itself. A minimum screen is over 64K. An interlaced screen can run up to maybe 140K . So your absolute best case is 15 screens out of the 1-meg video RAM. Not so bad... I doubt most people have more than a half-dozen open on their coco, at max. That about cover things? There is 1 Reply. #: 5161 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 17:45:04 Sb: #5142-GUI Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 Kevin, how about emailing me a screen shot, huh? I'd love to see your progress thus far :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5137 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 02:29:20 Sb: Update on the OSKer Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: all The first issue of the OSKer was completed (layout) on Tuesday, and mailing will start Friday (when I get it back from the printer). We are about 4 days behind schedule, but hey, it's the first issue, and I know everyone will enjoy it. There are 1000 being printed, and we haven't yet received quite that many requests for it (first issue is free), so if you are interested, see the file in area #15 for info on obtaining it. Of course, this is only good until the supply runs out! Issues should start showing up in your mail next week, depending on how far away you are, and how fast the mail decides to get it there (1st class). StG #: 5165 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 21:22:35 Sb: #5116-#Special! QUICK! Fm: JOHN R. WAINWRIGHT 72517,676 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Hey Paul, Another question on that second board. Will it be available at the same time as the MM1? How much for the whole works? If you can come up with as good a deal on a hard drive as you seem to have on the case and power supply, I'd like to hear that too!! July 20th, eh? Pressure. ARRRRGH (hehe) JohnW There is 1 Reply. #: 5175 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 00:22:07 Sb: #5165-#Special! QUICK! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: JOHN R. WAINWRIGHT 72517,676 (X) The second board WILL be available at the same time as the first board -no need to worry. Hard drive prices will be competitive, and we may add value to the drie by preformatting it and including some PD stuff on it. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5205 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 21:44:02 Sb: #5175-Special! QUICK! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, will it be a SCSI drive? What size? What make? --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5168 S15/Hot Topics 13-Jul-90 22:19:36 Sb: #5142-#GUI Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) OK sooooo.... what does this mean?? The question I have is from a user who wants to know the amount of RAM to have to develope in. On a terminal system 1-2 meg works out well. By this I mean you would load everything in RAM, set up a RAM disk for C's LIB etc directories and temp files and then have enough left to work in. It makes a big difference for C programmers to have everything in RAM even if you have a fast HD. I used a QT20x with 2.5 Meg and had more than enough though a QT00x with 1meg is tight. The video requirments of your GUI will effect this. On a TC70 with 1.5meg it would work OK if the GUI only took 256K or so. Anyway you see where I'm going with this. With memory prices dropping like they are a dedicated C developer should just buy a couple megs and go nuts. I guess my question is, What is the minimum RAM to run the GUI with say 2 or 3 windows and no graphics? Looks like what your are saying is that the GUI would run Ok with about 128 or 256K dedicated to it leaving the rest for the system?? Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 5202 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 16:54:46 Sb: #5168-#GUI Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Ummm. What it means is: the RAM requirements of the video chip far outweigh the memory requirements of the software. The video is always in "graphics" mode (there is no "ROM text" mode as on the coco or IBM displays). Each screen will always take a little more than 64K of ram, minimum. So it depends on how many screens the person has open. With 3 screens open in 80x26 mode (a pretty common situation), that's about 200K used for video. The driver needs will come from non-video ram... round that off as 20K just for fun. C programmers always need more RAM . I agree that many people will jump to 2-3 meg both because of the low cost, and because of the relatively large video ram requirements. There is 1 Reply. #: 5208 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 21:44:39 Sb: #5202-GUI Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Yup... dunno how I managed with only 1 meg on my 2000, even... or 256K or my A1000! (waaaay back when :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5172 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 00:17:02 Sb: #5123-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, What BRAND SCSI do you have? That's some system you've got, buddy. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5206 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 21:44:13 Sb: #5172-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Thanks, Pau.... Uhm... it's a Seagate ST277N 65 meg, 40 ms access time. 5 1/4 inch . I can get the drive specs if you need em (from my mountlist, or there's this file around somewheres...) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5231 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 13:03:42 Sb: #4997-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, QuickBasic is an outstanding implementation. BASIC09 is somewhere in between GW-BASIC and BASIC09--IMHO. As I said in my earlier message, QB is being bundled by Microsoft with version 5.0 of MS-DOS. Some time ago I read comments by Bill Gates in a magazine that BASIC would become a super powerful batch language. Apparently, he feels that he has to get zillions of copies of it out there to achieve that objective and I suspect he is right. I can remember wondering when I first used ms-dos why .BAT files were necessary at all when BASIC was available, but I suspect that was because Microsoft bought MS-DOS and .BAT processing was already built in. There are three areas where QB represents an improvement over GW-BASIC (which, for purposes of this discussion, we can consider roughly equivalent to RS-BASIC.): 1). Runtime 2). Language extensions 3). Development Environment The most wonderful is the development environment, but to take them in order: RUNTIME The runtime code is fully compiled and therefore quite fast. Basic09, of course, is pretty fast, too but uses a semi-compiled i-code. In QB, the developer can choose to compile and link so that no runtime module is required. This simplifies running the program for the end user and you can distribute your object module to any user who has MS-DOS. Or the developer can compile and link the same source so that a run time module is also required. This approach produces a smaller object module and saves disk space when you have several programs that can share the runtime. This runtime is more a collection of executable modules like inkey than an interpreter like runb. In any event, you can obtain a license to distribute the runtime. Of course, all OS9 level II users have runb because BASIC09 comes with level II. I've forgotten what it's like to have level 1. (..Continued in next message)... There is 1 Reply. #: 5232 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 13:05:31 Sb: #5231-Is Basic out of date? Fm: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 To: JOHN TEAGUE 75715,1670 (X) (.....continued from last message) LANGUAGE EXTENSIONS Line numbers are optional. QB has a call like B09's run. However it also has line labels which can be used in GOTO and GOSUB commands. It also has a very complete set of control-flow statements including DO, WHILE...WEND, IF...THEN...ELSE, FOR...NEXT, and SELECT CASE (similar to C's switch). DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT WOW. When you singlestep through source code a highlight bar appears on the line of code about to be executed. You can display variables of your choice in a debug window. You can set breakpoints throughout the code. Include files are supported (like C). The integrated editor is far superior to the one used with BASIC09. All these features are controlled by a system of pull-down menu's and dialog boxes that work with either keyboard or mouse. #: 5195 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 13:08:01 Sb: #5055-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) ~ Well my view on it it depends on what your writing. in some cases C would make the program easier and in other cases basic09. I have written a bunch of utilities in Basic09 that I doubt would be any better in C. However I can see that some applications would be cumbersome or imposseble in basic09 since it only has a finite instruction set. I would say map out what you want to do and then decide what language to do it in. Mike #: 5173 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 00:18:19 Sb: #5126-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) I have a guy who is currently on vacation assigned so a TAPCIS type thingie. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 5207 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 21:44:28 Sb: #5173-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Another message reminded me... how practical might it be to use the MM/1 as a remote terminal for my Amiga? Right now, remote CLI interfaces are possible on the Amiga, but you can't run amiga GUI apps from the remote. Since Kevin's working on the MM/1's GUI, and since he's familiar with the Amiga....? ah, well. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5236 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 19:12:30 Sb: #5207-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 Eet - Unfortunately, there's a good reason why you don't see Amiga programs running on remote GUI terminals... the programs often diddle directly with video memory. Which kind of cuts out remote usage, unless perhaps someone rigged up some hardware interrupts a la Bridgeboard wherein any write to Ami video memory caused a program to go and echo that change to the remote. Can you say "slow" ? Those that don't diddle, but instead use only gfx library calls, could possibly use a rewritten library that sends the commands to a remote terminal. Alas, another stickler pops up: like many windowing systems, the Amiga OS allows _programs_ to directly change gfx context info structures. What this means is that a program could change, say, whether a menu item was enabled or not... but without a new SetMenuStrip call, the remote would never know. Of course, you could send the entire menu structure over on each mouse menubar click, but ugh! The CoCo, btw, has one instance of this nasty... its menu structure can also be changed, and without an UpdateMenuBar (UMBar) call, a remote wouldn't know. And I betcha neither Amiga nor CoCo programmers make those update calls for every little change (?). I gritted my teeth when I saw this on the CoCo GUI. That kind of setup is written from the standpoint of a C programmer, and goes against the cardinal rule (of mine ;-) that any change to an OS structure should be done via the OS only. Sorry. Got me fired up a little . - kev #: 5197 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 13:10:03 Sb: #5076-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 (X) Yes, I use the ON-GOTO for menu selections. then i have distince areas of the module that handles the selections. i use GOSUBS for I/O also. but otherwise where i can i use pure loop structures. but for stuff like menu selections who wants a pile of IF-THEN-ENDIF's??? thats would be nasty! There is 1 Reply. #: 5203 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 18:20:45 Sb: #5197-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 Exactly! Not only would IF-THEN-ENDIF's be time consuming, it would be code and memory consuming as well. My favorite loop is the WHILE-DO. It makes it real nice for checking for proper input. I mean this: press="" WHILE press<"1" or press>"5" DO PRINT "Enter choice (1-5) "; GET #0,press PRINT ENDWHILE is much better than this: 10 A$=INKEY$ 20 IF A$="" THEN 10 30 IF A$<"1" OR A$>"5" THEN 10 Floyd There is 1 Reply. #: 5209 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 21:53:41 Sb: #5203-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 (X) Yep. Or even get rid of the Press="" by using a REPEAT-UNTIL loop. It's nice to have so many choices! ;-) There is 1 Reply. #: 5224 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 10:41:51 Sb: #5209-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Floyd Resler 72500,2572 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) REPEAT-UNTIL - Why didn't I think of that? Well, it's time to go shorten some code! #: 5189 S15/Hot Topics 14-Jul-90 12:02:36 Sb: #5137-#Update on the OSKer Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) Scott; OOops... here's another thing that has slipped my (aging) mind! Add me to your mailing list too, please: Jim Peasley 2228 earding Ave. Redwood City, CA. 94062 Thanks, ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 5226 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 10:58:58 Sb: #5189-Update on the OSKer Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) I have all of your addresses and will be sending you copies on Monday. #: 5233 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 16:28:53 Sb: #32 bit bus? Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: 76703,4227 (X) Kev, The MM1 ads state that it has an 32 bit expansion bus. However the 68070 in the MM1 is 16 bits and you are instructed to discard the MM1 when you move to the 32 bit bus. Several callers asked about this thinking that the MM1 could be expanded on this 32 bit bus. Unless my math is wrong or I've become very stupid you can't run a 16 bit CPU on a 32 bit bus. If you could it would serve no purpose whatsoever. Before I add this to my next QnA upload I want to make sure I'm not missing anything. Can you really expand the MM1 with a 32 bit bus and if so how? Is this just ad hype? Frank PS. Remember the old SWTPC ads with a 25 Amp bridge rectifier? Used to get Gimix really ticked because they had a 25 Amp power supply and the SWTPC only had a 8 Amp power supply. Yet the SWTPC ads said it had a 25 Amp bridge rectifier with no mention of capacity of the supply itself. Sounds familiar. There is 1 Reply. #: 5237 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 19:16:06 Sb: #5233-#32 bit bus? Fm: Mark S 76004,373 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) I see no reason why you cant run a 16bit cpu on a 32 bit buss There are a couple of reasons it could be usefull. 32 bit memory to memory DMA, Slave 32bit DSP's, Slaved 32 bit CPU, and maybe even a math co-processor. All though I will agree its overkill, not to mention costly. There is 1 Reply. #: 5241 S15/Hot Topics 15-Jul-90 21:23:58 Sb: #5237-32 bit bus? Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Mark S 76004,373 Yes I see your point, but as I understand it the MM1's memory is restricted to the 2nd board so memory to memory DMA would not work. I don't know if their bus would support slaved CPUs etc. But if the memory could not be on the bus none of your suggestions would work.. would they?? Your point of overkill and costly is why the K-Bus is only 16 bits. It was designed to be low cost and match the 16 bit CPUs. We can and do run a '30 on the bus with good results and speed. Our paper calcs show we are only losing 5% over what a full 32 bit bus would give us. If these run true then 5% is a small gain for the added cost of the extra bits. We are also planning a CPU card with on-board memory that would overcome most of that loss. I guess it's a compromise (sp?) between cost and practical operations. Frank #: 5252 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 07:34:30 Sb: #5241-32 bit bus? Fm: Mark S 76004,373 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) I think you are getting confused with Address size Vs. Data path size. I am not commenting on any particular system architecture only your comment That a 16 bit cpu wont work on a 32 bit buss. I agree the use of a 16bit buss is the right thing to do. However I think any architecture that removes any of the addressing from the system bus and makes it CPU access only is basicly flawed. Besides you should be using some sort of cache controler to make up the difference. #: 5258 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 15:42:00 Sb: #5233-32 bit bus? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Ummm. Pretty pointed "PS", Frank. Isn't that caller's question best answered by KLE, rather than in your own Q&A file? Personally, I don't think that either company should upload info about the other's machine (yet). Even well-meaning answers can be misleading, being based on changing specifications. So I believe that each company should talk ONLY about what it knows right now: its own hardware. I suspect that _both_ companies would benefit from such a policy at this time. Of course, if each company wishes to release me to talk about the status of _all_ their pending plans, I'd be than happy to indulge in some fair slicing through of the hype on both sides, myself . In any case, the info I have is this: The MM/1 normally would use a 16-bit bus with 16-bit peripherals (those can also be used on the 32-bit bus, natch). There will be a shared-RAM adapter for the two main MM/1 cards to plug into a larger 32-bit bus... allowing multiple MM/1s to coexist with a 68030, much in the same way that multiple TC9s coexist with your K-Bus 68030. So the MM/1 isn't "discarded". I guess it would primarily be used as an intelligent gfx/sound/io device once a 68030 is added. New Q's: What happens to a person's TC70 when he upgrades to a 68030 on the K-bus? And what calculations were used to show a 68030 using 16-bit RAM slowed only 5% over using 32-bit RAM? Or was that only when accessing peripherals? #: 5268 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 20:44:07 Sb: ##5233-32 bit bus Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: 70310,317 Frank I have been reading the mail on the sidelines for a long time and not comenting. First the 32 bit bus is something that over the next few years will become necessary to suport new hardware and graphics standards. The way this works is the MM/1 uses a 16 bit bus. So the MM/1 is using only half of the 32 bit bus. Eventually 68030's and 68040's will become more popular and the need for a 32 bit bus will become aparent. Since we have a 32 bit bus defined as part of the MM/1 specification the people that have bought boards for the MM/1 will not be stuck with un-usable hardware. It wil plug in and be useable by the new 32 bit processors. So the 32bit bus definition is so that people don't have to throw away the boards that they may buy. I have never read the ads by Paul but they probably should read that the MM/1 bus has been define for full 32 bit operation. Also the 68040 does not suport dynamic bus sizeing. What this means is that unless one uses a verry large amount of hardware external to the processor to simulate the 68030/68020 automatic bus sizeing one can only access a 16 bit wide device as a word aligned word access or properly aligned byte access. One can not access the device as a 32 bit device and have the processor make the two accesses that would be required to assemble the long word. what this means is that if one has a 16 bit graphics board one could only use word accesses to move memory around. with instruction execution overhead the move would be slower than if the device was 32 bits wide. It would take 2 times as long to do the same size move. I don't know how you made the calculatins but they are verry misleading. if one is moveing more than a few bytes of data around the 32 bit bus will be two times as fast as the 16 bit bus for the same bus access speed. Example: bus speed is 100 ns. on a 16 bit bus to move 1000 bytes it would take 500 accesses or 50000 ns. The same 1000 bytes would require 250 accesses or 25000 ns. the instruction over head for the two moves would be identical assuming that the processor had an instruction cache. This explanation is a little over There is 1 Reply. #: 5269 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 20:45:37 Sb: #5268-#5233-32 bit bus Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 simplified but to go into any more depth would require more space than a message would allow. The actual increase in speed would be somewat less but it is obvios that there is more than 5% increase in speed. Since a large part of data processing is moveing data around the 32 bit bus would be superior. Since these two machines are intended for graphics nad sound manipulation a 32 bit bus is definately superior and will become aparent when a 32 bit processor is put on the market. PS Frank instead of competing with paul and makeing machines that are similar why don't you distribute the MM/1 much like you distribute the TC70 by hazlewood. It seems that if you two would join forces it would be much better for the whole coco comunity. Kevin Pease 70516,1633 Press !> #: 5271 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 22:28:02 Sb: #5252-32 bit bus? Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Mark S 76004,373 (X) I think that I should have composed my message to you offline. I'm not confused, your not confused. Lets start over. Actually I did compose a message to kevin D. that covers some of this so I won't repeat it here. In other areas I agree with you (I think) anyway read the message I sent (will send) to kevin next #: 5272 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 22:34:04 Sb: #5258-32 bit bus? Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev Good information... at last! I'm only trying to reduce the amount of calls 'I' get by responding to the question. The question related to the 16 bit K-Bus vs the 32 bit MM1 bus and why. I know why the K-Bus is 16 bits and now I know why the MM1 has a 16/32 bit bus. Thank you. PS I'm glad they liked the way the TC9 works. Imitation is the best flattery... Now don't start with the TC70 vs MM1. (heh heh) As to your questions. #1 re the TC70 upgrading to a 68030. Not possible, we did not design it that way nor have we ever claimed that capability. The K-Bus is expandable by replacing single function cards (CPU's etc) with better ones ie: replace a 68000 CPU with a 68030 CPU. The other bus cards would still be used. The TC70 is a multi-function card and only one can reside on the bus at a time. It would have to be removed to upgrade the system to a 68030 for example. All multi-function cards are less expensive to build because they do not have the added cost of the bus for each function but they have the disadvantage of inflexibility. That's why we offer both options. Spend more and have flexibility, spend less and have less flexibility. In any case other K-Bus cards added to a TC70 system would work with any CPU/multifunction card so not all would be lost. BTW I have no intention of doing a 'shared-RAM adaptor' for the TC70. The TC9 does that and that is enough for now. I may change my mind later but not for now. #2 The 5% loss was total system thru-put in a real life situation. I'll see if I can get the specifics from Dave about exactly how he arrived at those figures. This was done when the 68030 board for the K-Bus was being designed (6-8 months ago) and I don't recall the details. In one case a 68030 K-system replaced a 68020 20x system and the thru-put doubled, the K-system was twice as fast as the 20x. (the 20x has a 32 bit data bus) However there is more to performance than data bus size etc. The whole system and all its parts contribute or detract from the overall performance. cont... #: 5273 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 22:35:03 Sb: #5258-#32 bit bus? Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) The faster each area goes the faster it all goes. We, you and I etc tend to dwell on minute details when it is really total system performance we should be looking at. I think it is a good idea to release you (I didn't know you weren't) to discuss any and all plans that FHL has. I hope that doing this will encourage Paul to do the same. His ads and promotional material leave much to guess about. I think he may also be losing some sales due to this, at least in this group. I've found that the CoCo OS9 users do not go for hype. As the old TV series Dragnet used to say, "the facts mam, just the facts" You hereby have my permission to discuss anything with anybody about what we are planning unless I specifically ask you not to. Sometimes we talk about possibilities as opposed to actual plans, no point in talking about anything that's just in the 'talking' stage anyway. You may also inform the asker if I have requested that you not discuss a subject. Heck, I'm so open about what I'm doing that it puts me at a competitive disadvantage anyway, why stop now. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 5288 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 05:30:29 Sb: #5273-32 bit bus? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank -- Aye, I agree on "just the facts, ma'am" from FHL and KLE. That's why I chided you on the "sounds familiar" remark. Too close to a slam. And I thought it was amusing that you'd tell Pease that it was "Nice to hear from you directly instead of thru others. You should call me if you have any questions about what my plans are instead of using the round about way." That's funny, because I and others answer for both companies indirectly on many BBSs; and because your second sentence applies to yourself answering Q's about KLE's hardware . Deja vu. Anyway, enuf chiding! It's to be assumed that each company will put its own products in the best light; and usually vice versa. That's the biz. Perhaps the debate in the forum will shed more light all around. Or perhaps add to the confusion. Sounds like fun, anyhow... as long as it doesn't degenerate into the infamous Owlware hard disk ads type of thing ;-). BTW, your Q&A files have helped a lot of people, I'm sure. Interesting reading. Re: "I think it is a good idea to release you (I didn't know you weren't) to discuss any and all plans that FHL has. I hope that doing this will encourage Paul to do the same." Great! Better email me with reminders of any subjects you still consider taboo, first, tho. Same for Paul, if he's reading. As long as Wayne (and Marsha!) put up with me, this'll let me be independent about beating on both companies . - kev #: 5319 S15/Hot Topics 18-Jul-90 13:05:22 Sb: #5233-32 bit bus? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 Frank, Who has been instructed to discard the MM/1 when upgrading to the 32 bit bus? None of our literature mentions that. If you let us know who called you about that, I'll be glad to call them and explain our upgrade path to them. Thanks! Paul #: 5274 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 22:43:06 Sb: #5268-##5233-32 bit bus Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 (X) Kevin Nice to hear from you directly instead of thru others. You should call me if you have any questions about what my plans are instead of using the round about way. Anyway thanks for the information and please see my reply to K.D. about the 5% etc etc. I will have to wait for Dave to return from vacation for the information. As far as competing with paul and selling the MM1 as you suggest. No thank yo. If you remember I did not want to do your MM1 back in December and my reasons havn't changed. I think the TOMCAT approach is the best way for me and CoCo users. You and Paul think the MM1 is the way to go. GREAT! competing will only inprove the market and the products both companies produce. If Paul were to join forces with me as you suggest I think the product would cost more and not have as many features. Also Hazelwood has been doing OSK longer than anyone else and their port and support software is without a doubt the BEST available. It will take years to duplicate that by anyone else. I guess I'm just spoiled and don't want to move backward. Frank Hogg There is 1 Reply. #: 5294 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 20:00:46 Sb: #5274-#5233-32 bit bus Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank Everyones OSK software is good since when you do a port most of the software is from microware. The Idea behind OS9 is for microware to provide 99% of the OS with the person doing the port suplying only 1%. it is misleading to think that any ones OSK is beter than another persons. It only takes between 1 and 2 weeks to do an os9 port and that is only if you have unusual hardware. Most of the osk problems start with microware and are shared equally with all users. I speak from experience here. I have been using GIMIX hardware for about 4 years. We both know how long they have been at it. I have also done about 5 ports. There software suffers from the same problems as the software that I have after doing the port. OSK 2.3 has manny problems which Hazlewood will share with Paul and every one else who uses it. The computer that I am using now is a 68030 which I ported OSk to about 1 year ago. Most of the problems that I have had have been related to problems with OSK itself. That is why there is a new version about once a year. Frank I wish you the best of luck Weather Paul or you suceed will not affect my using of OSK or my designing of new hardware. Kevin Pease #: 5275 S15/Hot Topics 16-Jul-90 22:52:57 Sb: Upload QNA2 Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: SysOp (X) I have uploaded TC2.QNA to lib15. This is the second Q&A file. Please do your thing. Thanks Frank Hogg #: 5278 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 00:59:44 Sb: #5120-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) ~ Oh yes I agree! I will still use Basic09 on the MM/1 for my "quick 'n Dirty" utilities to do a job or to test stuff for C since now I will be getting into C more with the MM/1. My observations were not complete.. just on the surface the Basic doesn't seem that much faster but overall its improved over the CoCo version (no barrier and better gfx thats expected) Mike #: 5291 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 14:49:51 Sb: #5205-Special! QUICK! Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, oops -- I've lost track of the conversation here -- if you want to use a SCSI drive, Seagates are what we're using around here -- the 157N is a typical choice. Paul #: 5299 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 23:47:43 Sb: #Comparison Fm: Michael P. Brown 76220,1014 To: Frank Hogg Uhhh... I'm a bit puzzled by your comparison in TCVMM.CMP. It seems you left a few things out. Bpsed on available information I have revised your comparison just a bit... and hope it's closer to the mark. I won't upload it to the data libraries as I am not completely sure of it's veracity. TC70 MM1 w/2nd board Advantage ============================-================-====================-=========== Memory RAM 1.5 Meg 1 Meg Tomcat Max RAM 11.5 Meg 9 Meg Tomcat RAM Cost 2 Meg - $500 2 Meg - $150 MM/1 Expansion Bus K-Bus (16bit) 96pin 32bit BUS ? Expansion cards available 20+ a none yet Tomcat DMA Stereo sound No* Yes MM/1 TC9 (CoCo) compatible Yes No** ? Keyboard interface AT XT Tomcat Video outputs RGBI & CM8 RGB CM8 RGB MultiSync ? Serial Ports 3 2 (or 1 plus 1 MIDI) MM/1 Parellel ports 1 2 MM/1 DMA SCSI adapter Yes Yes - Case/power supply/install. No Yes MM/1 1.44 Meg 3.5" drive No Yes MM/1 DMA floppy disk controller Yes Yes - 16 million coior option ?? Yes ? Bundled Software OSK/C/Basic OSK/C/Basic + more*** MM/1 MS-DOS compiled compat? No Yes MM/1 Hi-Res Tandy Mouse port No Yes MM/1 Serial Mouse port Yes Yes - 8 Bit Tandy joystick port Yes Yes - Real Time Clock/battery Yes Yes - continued next msg. There is 1 Reply. #: 5301 S15/Hot Topics 17-Jul-90 23:51:26 Sb: #5299-Comparison Fm: Michael P. Brown 76220,1014 To: Michael P. Brown 76220,1014 continued... *We are planning a sound board for the K-Bus that will address this difference. **KLE has announced a device called the 'OS-Gateway'. This is a parallel port cartridge that plugs into a CoCo and allows it to use the hardware on the MM1. ***KLE plans to also include about $700 worth of bundled software goodies, such as a graphics editor, word processor, term program amd others. Charles West (Using my partner's account - we are considering the possibility of locally dealing one of these new machines as an alternative to the PC LAN systems that we usually set our clients up with. ) #: 5307 S15/Hot Topics 18-Jul-90 04:28:43 Sb: OSKer Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Scott Griepentrog 72427,335 Hi Scott! Please add my name to your mailing list. Ed Gresick PO Box 78 Middletown, DE 19709-0078 Thanks, Ed \ex #: 5328 S15/Hot Topics 18-Jul-90 23:43:38 Sb: #5291-Special! QUICK! Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Ah, good... a 3.5 incher, eh? might swap the 277n in my amiga and stick that sucker on my Amiga's hardcard, thus freeing my 5.25 bay for a Bridgeboard. Thanks, Paul. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5332 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jul-90 01:36:37 Sb: #5319-32 bit bus? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul; I think that this tidbit may have been taken out of context from the mm1.ann file in DL15. >> When a customer wishes to upgrade to another CPU and graphpcs board, >> the two-board MM/1 can be removed from the case, inserted in another >> with its own power supply, and used as a graphics terminal. On another note, maybe you and Frank could both say a bit about your respective warrantees. I don't remember reading anything in all the literature about warrantee coverage for either machine. Thanks, ...Jim #: 5358 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jul-90 17:21:53 Sb: #5273-32 bit bus? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Well, surely neither one of is innocent when it comes to "hype"! I suppose whether or not IMS loses sales remains to be seen -- when the hype is supported by performance, a customer will buy. I generally feel reluctant to get into discussions of commercial products in the forum, particularly if I'm associated with one. I'll be glad to post something like "Hey, y'all! Check out our new upload in DL15!" but to go ahead and be Drew Kaplan on the OS9 Forum is not my style. I don't think being "open" will lose you any sales and put you in a non-competitive position, btw. I think customers like being told what's up. So keep at it, Frank! If you end up saying things that are technically problematic, though, I'll have to leave the OS9 Forumites the job of correction. I will say one thing, however, and that is that a 32 bit bus, like a 16 bit bus, is a valid design CHOICE. There are arguments both ways, and both ways have merit. Certainly cost and performance are factors, but until you know the COST of the bus and the details about present and future PERFORMANCE, let's let the issue lie. We're both dealing in ignorance. And I certainly, in ANY case, cannot comment on the TC9 and TC70 because designs are not finalized. You're doing a great job, Frank, and as one marketeer to another, hats off for your efforts. Best wishes, Paul #: 5334 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jul-90 01:36:53 Sb: #Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: All For all you prospective MM/1 and TC/9 purchasers out there, I saw an ad today for an AT/XT/PS2 compatible keyboard with a built-in serial trackball for $79.00 at Fry's. I'll probably stop by to take a look at it tomorrow or Friday, and if anybody's interested, post a more complete description of it. ..Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 5384 S15/Hot Topics 20-Jul-90 21:32:21 Sb: #5334-Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Interesting... but most trackballs are a PIB to try to use as mice. Good positioning of the buttons relative to the ball is a big help. I like the idea of a trackball controller, tho I've seen a keyboard somewhere with a stylus tablet for the mouse where the trackball would be. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5357 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jul-90 11:27:18 Sb: #5209-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) ~ Yes finally figured out inkey on Basic09/68000 it is NOT like the basic09's inkey on the CoCo. what inkey does on the 68000 is to tell you how many keys are pending (how many characters in the buffer) so if you wanted to simulate the inkey function do this: Procedure GetKey PARAM path:BYTE PARAM char:string[1] dim i:integer i:=sNKEY(#path) if i>0 then get #path,C endif end all this does is if there is any characters pending it will grab one. if nomne are present the read call (get command) is ignored. Hope this helps! Mike There is 1 Reply. #: 5363 S15/Hot Topics 19-Jul-90 20:56:21 Sb: #5357-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 Thanks... I finally found that out, too. Certainly is different! #: 5400 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 00:12:54 Sb: #5078-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) A real question is how much POKEing a Basic program (including Microware/Basic09) uses. A POKE is just as good as a C pointer for blowing up houses, hotels, whatever, if its address argument hasn't been set right. Just like a pointer. "Serious" Basic programs are throwing PEEKs, POKEs, and VARPTRs all over the place. C just provides a more shorthand notation for these operations, grin. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 5402 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 02:32:27 Sb: #5400-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - except for maybe the odd BBS program or two, I haven't seen many Basic09 programs using PEEK/POKE. Have you? Well, maybe some system utilities, but those all use PEEK which isn't dangerous. There is 1 Reply. #: 5405 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 06:42:46 Sb: #5402-Is Basic out of date? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 Well...actually...I confess. I used ADDR and POKE in a program that solves one of the problems in Wm. Barden's most recent puzzle column, to avoid some redundant testing and stuff. I'll say 20 "Hail Hoares" and call you in the morning, Kev. #: 5401 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 00:19:28 Sb: #5091-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) You mean that OSK Basic uses 64-bit floaters? That means floating-point algorithms will run just as slow in Basic as in C under OSK. One advantage of Basic09 on the 6809 is that its single-precision (32 bits, and to heck with the IEEE) floating math was MUCH FASTER than C, which insists on the cumbersome double precision, whether you want it or not. That's right -- on a Coco, a floating-point program in Basic09 will outrun the same code in C. I was amaxzed to discover that. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 5406 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 06:44:00 Sb: #5401-Is Basic out of date? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Yes, I'm afraid it's true. (BTW, try SIZE() on a REAL in 6809 BASIC09; I think you'll find that it's a *five*-byte quantity!) #: 5394 S15/Hot Topics 20-Jul-90 23:40:08 Sb: #5068-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 You are dead right about wild C pointers, and how amazingly you can get away for years and never know you've got a funny pointer, because there just happens to be nobody else using the few bytes of memory that it stores a line of keyboard input into, or whatever. However, Basic09 and Basic can blow up any system too, using POKE with an argument that didn't get initialized right. I've written RSBASIC programs that built up binary-byte arrays, requiring POKE, and I could have blown that too. Yes, memory protection hardware is great for catching wild stuff. But it also may keep you from reading system variables, writing directly to I/O devices, and other things that we "shouldn't" be doing, but sometimes you have to for speed. I hope we don't have to on the MM/1. --mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 5409 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 07:35:08 Sb: #5394-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, >Yes, memory protection hardware is great for catching wild stuff. But it also >may keep you from reading system variables, writing directly to I/O devices, >and other things that we "shouldn't" be doing, but sometimes you have to for >speed. I hope we don't have to on the MM/1. I hope that you will become an advocate for "doing things right" on the MM/1 and not resorting to or telling others that you must use "bad ways" to get your programs to work at the speed you think necessary when you port them. I know we've talked out this before on the CoCo but I feel it will become even more important with the MM/1 since it is a Level I machine, and because the user (and programmer) base is potentially much larger. This will become critical when network software is developed and the remote graphic terminal ideas we discussed on LISTSERV are available. Your position as a well known programmer will serve to show others that these sort of tactics are "bad, bad" (in my best G. Bush voice) and not encourage others to try it. We all want to see well behaved software that is portable and easily upgradeable. Cheating in the real human world always gets its just rewards sometime and I don't see any difference in the programming world. I am personally counting on your support in this area. Mark #: 5395 S15/Hot Topics 20-Jul-90 23:45:10 Sb: #5073-Special deal Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Well, a loaner would be a lot of hassle for you. I think we'll just wait till our development machine shows up and use that. Next meeting is 2nd Thursday in August, and the OS9 Club meets on 4th THursdays, so any time 2nd City gets a machine there will be a meeting within 2 weeks anyway. Plus we'd need time to learn enuf to demo the beast properly. Sooo...just let me know approximately when 2nd City will get theirs. Tanks, mike k #: 5419 S15/Hot Topics 21-Jul-90 13:29:50 Sb: #5384-#Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim; >> Interesting... but most trackballs are a PIB to try to use as mice. How so? Is it because of the fact that 'clicking and dragging' is awkward, or am I missing something? If the TB has a click-lock would this make it any better? I like the idea of trackballs over mice because I'm generally a messy person and have stuff scattered all over my desk. Trying to use a mouse requires that I clean off my desk! :-) It's also been my experience that TBs stay a lot cleaner than mice and require less maintenance. Didn't make it to Fry's yet, but maybe today or tomorrow. $79.00 for the combo looks much more appealing than $55 for the keybd + $60(+) for the mouse. Comments? ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )= U There is 1 Reply. #: 5470 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 19:38:32 Sb: #5419-Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 I consider having room for my mouse as important as having room for my cpu . Trackballs usually lead me to having cramps in my hand, they tend to 'drift' when I try fine movements (especially in a paint program), especially so when I have to hold a button down while rolling the ball.My mouse seems to stay fairly clean.... of course, I generally only roll it on its mousemat. :) I agree, the $79 does look appealing... but I've also been eyeing the MEI compact keyboard... :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5450 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 11:00:24 Sb: #MM/1 Conference Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: All Join us Wednesday evening, July 25 from 9:00pm to 11:00 pm E.D.T. as we welcome Paul Ward, President of Interactive Media Systems to our Conference area. Paul is looking forward to discussing the MM/1 and answering your questions regarding his newest entry into the OSK arena. This will be a semi-formal conference in Room 3 of the OS9 forum. Please reply to this message if you plan to attend. Also, please see CONF.HLP found in LIB 1 for a quick review on the proper protocol for the evening. Looking forward to seeing you there! Steve There are 6 Replies. #: 5453 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 11:22:38 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Here's my reply; I'll be there. #: 5455 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 11:37:15 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I'll be there! #: 5465 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 14:55:33 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: PHIL SCHERER 71211,2545 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I'll be there! #: 5468 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 17:59:02 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: John Baer 71615,1175 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Count me in! Thanks... John Baer #: 5469 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 18:46:21 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: SCOTT HOWELL 70270,641 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I will be there!! #: 5471 S15/Hot Topics 22-Jul-90 20:48:57 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: JOHN R. WAINWRIGHT 72517,676 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Yes Indeed!!! I will be there. #: 5476 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 04:44:17 Sb: GFX Speed Comparison Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all Just for fun, I've run a speed comparison test... what I did was to GET an 80x40 block of gfx, and then PUT it across the screen in a matrix (the actual count of PUTs is close to 1400). All programs were in Basic. The results were: 15Mhz 68070 (MM/1) at 640x208x16-color - 6 seconds (prelim ver) 2Mhz 6809 (Coco3) at 640x192x 4-color - 490 seconds (old grfdrv) 2Mhz 6809 (Coco3) at 640x192x 4-color - 34 seconds (fast grfdrv) 2Mhz 6809 (Coco3) at 640x192x 4-color - 55 seconds (RSDOS Basic) Previous tests drawing lines and circles had also shown the same ratio between the 68K and L-II fast grfdrv... about 5:1. Now note that the MM/1 was moving twice as much data, because it was in 16-color mode vs 4-color on the CoCo. So I reran the fast grfdrv L-II test using 16-color mode (same number of PUTs) to be more fair... 2Mhz 6809 (Coco3) at 320x192x16-color - 54 seconds (fast grfdrv) Now the 68070 shows up as almost 10 times as fast. Starting both tests at the same time really shows this speed diff up... the MM/1 goes splat! splat! splat! onto the screen and finishes, while the coco continues for what seems like an eternity. And I had been so proud of my fast grfdrv Puts . #: 5480 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 10:04:57 Sb: CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Hi Mike! Read your comments on Basic on the MM/1. Did not seem to jive with my experiences so I duplicated your tests. My CoCo is model 3 with 512k memory - basically a 'vanilla' machine. For the 68k tests, I have a PT68 model K4 which uses a 68000 chip, has 4 megs of memory and runs at 16 MHz. OS is version 2.3, Basic is version 2.1. I also had the tests run two 'VME' machines. One machine was a 68010 running at 12 MHZ. The operating system for this machine is Version 2.2 and the version of basic is 1.2. No other tasks were running. The second machine was a 68030 running at 25 MHz. The operating system for this machine is Version 2.3 and the version of basic is 2.3. This machine has a math coprocessor and an indeterminate number of other tasks were active. These are the results (in seconds) (I included your results on the MM/1 for comparison purposes.) CoCo MM/1 PT68K4 68010 68030 Conditions 4 3 1 3 1 As written (k=1000) 40 12 26 8 k=10000 78 59 23 52 14 k=20000 10 13 8 8 2 k=1000 (Changed integers to real) Note that in all cases the PT68 was faster than the CoCo. Marginally when using real numbers and substantially when using integers. (continued) #: 5481 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 10:06:18 Sb: #CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) (continued from preceeding message) I have no explanation for the poor performance of the 68010 machine except that the version of basic09 was an old one. Have no idea as to its relative performace. But, it is interesting that it handled the case of real numbers as well as the PT68. The CoCo had no background tasks running. The PT68 had a 'cron-like' program running as a background task. I don't think this process influenced the tests significantly. And, I think the 1 MHz difference in clock speeds between the MM/1 and PT68 is insignificant when compared to the overall results. To be sure we're running the same tests, I used the basic09 'benchmark' program on page 196 of 'The Complete Rainbow Guide to OS-9'. On the 680x0 machines the line 'SHELL "date,t"' was changed to 'SHELL "date"'. It would be interesting to see a similar test run on Frank Hogg's machines; i.e., the 'tomcat', 'tc70', 'QT', etc. I curious as to the speed differences. I had 'heard' the 68070 is not as fast as the 68000 because of internal architectural differences. Do you know if this is true? Or, is the speed difference due to the version of OSK and Basic used? It might be interesting to continue this testing; i.e., running ML programs on the MM/1 and PT68K. If you'd like to devise some tests and send them to me, I'd be happy to run them. And, if you're nearby (I'm in Delaware) and would like to come by, I'd be happy to let you run any programs and tests you'd like (maybe bring your machine down and run side-by-side tests). Ed There are 2 Replies. #: 5485 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 15:42:45 Sb: #5481-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed The version of Basic that Mike is using is pretty old. Also the MM/1 will have the same speed as the TC70 in the MM/1 minimum configuration. The memory on the minimum MM/1 is shared with the video display and is much slower than if it were private. The memory is accesed every 533 ns instead of being accesed every 266 ns if there were no wait states. When the MM/1 is upgraded with the I/O board the speeds will improve significantly. I ran the drystone benchmark on my old PT68k and got around 950 drystones /second with a 12.5 MHz clock. The MM/1 with fast memory on the I/O board gets around 950 drystones - The MM/1 like make has will get around 600 drystones/second. The 68070 processor is definitly slower then the 68000. A 68070 at 15 MHz is the same general speed as a 68000 at 12.5 MHz. The TC70 should show verry close to the same speed. although I don't know much about memory speed on that board. Kevin Pease 70516,1633 #: 5488 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 19:41:30 Sb: #5481-#CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) I added a test on a 3-meg MM/1 (2-megs fast RAM for program, 1-meg shared RAM for video) and got these times in seconds (slowest to fastest): 1000 10000 20000 1000 CPU ints ints ints real Computer Basic =========== ==== ==== ==== ==== =========== ===== 2Mhz 6809 - 4 40 78 10 CoCo 15Mhz 68070 - 3 30 59 19 MM/1 (1meg) 2.1 12Mhz 68010 - 3 26 52 8 VMEbus ? 1.2 15Mhz 68070 - 2 20 39 13 MM/1 (3meg) 2.1 16Mhz 68000 - 1 12 23 8 PT68K 2.1 25Mhz 68030 - 1 8 14 2 VMEbus ? 2.3 This shows the speed increase when not running out of video RAM on the MM/1. It also seems to show up an anomaly. Why did the 68010 do so well using REAL variables? Does the earlier Basic version use smaller data or is just a mistake in your chart? - kev There is 1 Reply. #: 5503 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 02:59:39 Sb: #5488-#CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Hi Kevin! We don't know the reason for the 68010 being so slow. The tests were run several times and we got the same results each time. We *suspect* the problem has to do with the version of basic used. We intend to retry with a later version of basic. Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 5504 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 03:25:28 Sb: #5503-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 Ed - it wasn't that it was slow.... it was that the 68010 was so FAST on the REALs test. That is, not in line with its other results. As to why it was slow overall otherwise, I'd suspect slow memory? #: 5484 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 15:41:57 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I plan on attending (but, that is past my bedtime - yawn) Ed #: 5486 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 18:02:24 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Ron Lammardo 75706,336 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve, Will Try to make it!! Ron #: 5494 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 23:07:58 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve; Count me in... at least for a while... Wed. is bowling league nite. ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )= U #: 5513 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 14:40:10 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I will try to make it but i work nights so i may be unable to attend. i may be able to jump in later on but its likely not at all.. so please somebody capture it for me??? thanks Mike #: 5515 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 16:11:55 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) I'll be there. #: 5496 S15/Hot Topics 23-Jul-90 23:08:13 Sb: #5470-#Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim; re: $79 keyboard/trackball Forget it! It's chintzy... too light, didn't like the keyboard layout/feel, and the trackball is too close to the keypad and edge of the board. No room for ham-hands like mine. I did play with one trackball for a while tho, and I really liked it. It was a 3 button that had buttons #1 and #2 wrapping around the ball dlmost the full length of the pad, and button #3, the drag-lock centered at the top. Very easy to use and well designed ergonomically. Good control too, using variable cpi. It looked as though the faster yousmoved the ball, the more cpi that is fed to the driver - coarse control; and the slower you moved it, the less cpi. If I remember, it was something like 50-360 cpi. ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )=0 U There is 1 Reply. #: 5517 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 22:51:00 Sb: #5496-Keyboard/trackball Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Thanks for the info, I'll consider alternatives to that keyboard, then . --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5509 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 14:30:53 Sb: #5402-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) ~ Well my BBS in Basic09 does need a PEEK for carrier since ACIAPAK has no way to tell it for me. but its not hard-coded so the user may use a pak thats addressed differently then the standard pak. Even though this isn't "clean" code I never have a problem multi-tasking or anything like that. The modem kill switch (type=20) is ucreliable and is a shock to the system. so i let my BBS handle it. Mike #: 5510 S15/Hot Topics 24-Jul-90 14:31:08 Sb: #5409-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X) ~ Well I too take the stand against "bad programs" and my BBS is clean as it can get with the exception of peeking for carrier.. thats all! I allow users to imbed the base address in a file so he may use other paks and other ports but I had no choice but to do it that way. sure if I toyed with it i could do other features but ii would be nothing less then dirty. Alot of Alpha's BBS owners complained about it... sure he has some slick features I don't have but the cost is system ram, crashes, and other erratic operations... which would you rather have??? Mike #: 5524 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:11:34 Sb: #5052-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Gosh Mike, basic09 has totally anarchic type checking, not faschist! Global variables are a cinch. Object interfaces are a piece of cake! (especially as compared to C). Now that the "new" basics are in wide use in the Mac & PC, I would think that these old biases against structured Basics would be dieing out. Just my 2 cents! :) #: 5529 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:30:02 Sb: #5209-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) I *will* say that basic09 *NEEDS* an update. Inclusion of INKEY and SYSCALL at minimum. Microware *will* be taken to task in the MOTD for this, the high price, and not distributing RUNB with the OS. There is 1 Reply. #: 5535 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:54:21 Sb: #5529-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 You know what I'd like to see in Basic09? Auto-RUN of any unknown name. For example: CLS Would automatically be executed as a RUN "cls" command. Dunno how to do this with functions, tho. ( A = max(C,D) for example). Just an idea. There is 1 Reply. #: 5588 S15/Hot Topics 26-Jul-90 17:44:14 Sb: #5535-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) On the Amiga, if you run from Workbench (the GUI), you can assign a program to a tool... for example, if you click on an icon that belongs to a picture, you can have it automatically call up Deluxe Paint, or a picture-viewer, and pass it whatever parameters are needful (usually automatic). For example, an AmigaBASIC program with an icon would automatically startup AmigaBASIC and run the program. I'm not singing the praises of the Amiga, just pointing out that that kind of thing will be possible (even likely) in your GUI, since you know the Amiga. Dunno how you could do that from the shell, tho. Hmm.. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5591 S15/Hot Topics 26-Jul-90 18:46:02 Sb: #5588-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Aye, the coco's gshell (gfx shell) does the same, tho with slightly different file methods. On the Amiga, you use a xxx.info file for each program; the coco took after the IBM PIF file idea and uses generic "aif.xxx" files, where the xxx is an extension. So a program with the name, say, "picture.gif" would use the icon named in "aif.gif", and be passed as a parameter to the program named in aif.gif. The aif file is editable english... the icons are kept in one main directory. Some kind of combo deal would be nice. #: 5530 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:33:32 Sb: #4997-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I the MM/1 appears at the same speed as your MOTD material, the 6800000 will be out first. (am I getting nasty in my old age?) There is 1 Reply. #: 5559 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 19:52:35 Sb: #5530-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 OUCH! Actually, the speed with which the MM/1 material gets to you is INVERSELY proportional to the speed with which the MM/1 gets out. We're working over overtime! However, wrists are appropriately slapped! I'll get on it tonight. Paual Paul, that is. #: 5527 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:19:23 Sb: #5400-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Basic09 don't have a VARPTR. (It does have (ADDR(var)). I haven't used a poke or a peek in years. The main problems I see with C is the proliferation of libraries, lack of (often) useable interfaces to drivers, and low maintainability factors. #: 5526 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:14:26 Sb: #5078-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) You may want to read the book "The New Basics". B09 is not new, but it falls into that mold. #: 5528 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 04:24:08 Sb: #5236-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev... on Basic09. Don't forget its size efficency. Remember that once you pay for the RUNB overhead, lots can be added with just a little code. Everytime I add anything to C I seem to have to pay 3k! There is 1 Reply. #: 5544 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 15:05:38 Sb: #5528-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 Bill - Not so.... same concept as Basic09, only less so. You pay once for the initialization and startup code, and then once for each function you use. Only ROF's that include called functions are linked in, not the whole library (equivalent to Basic09's requirement for the 12K life support system). Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5596 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 01:19:06 Sb: #5544-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Guess I better and my comments to the Basic vrs C debate, especially since I have resisted using C for quite a while. First, the only time I recall using PEEK/POKE in Basic09 programs was to do something like changing a string to uppercase. My experiments showed the PEEK/POKE method to be much faster than anything else I could come up with. My biggest complaints with Basic09 are: 1. The primitive editor used. When doing something serious I always used my own editor in another window, saved the source and then loaded into Basic workspace. Seems to a waste of time somewhere here. 2. The fact that all "functions" are loaded as separate modules. All those little modules kicking around always bothers me. Yes, Bill, I know the advantage of being able to create large programs this way. But having essentially a seperate program for something like "toupper" just doesn't sit right with me. But C ain't perfect either. What I do like about C is the large number of functions already written (and debugged?), its portability, flexibility and speed. But its tersness (extolled by some) really makes the learning curve much longer than it should be. And getting a real handle on pointers is akin to solving the Gordian Knot. Dispite these problems I am now using C for most of my programming. I am even avoiding assembler (which I really prefer) now that I C the light! There are 2 Replies. #: 5609 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 09:40:56 Sb: #5596-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 Yes, brother Bob, it's always good to hear from a newly saved soul (grin)! Pointers are a but indigestible at first, but make rampant sense once you get the hang of them. Candidly, I never have used anything with more than two layers of indirection (i.e. char **woof), but some folks] revel in that stuff. I'm taking a languages course at the moment, and we have to write 3 projects in 3 languages in 10 weeks. So far the cut has been project 1 was Pascal (Cobol, Fortran, and Algol68 were the other options). #2 was either Prolog or Lisp (I chose Prolog), and #3 is Smalltalk, ADA, or C++ (with emphasis on the object orientation). The point of all this is that I now _really appreciate_ C's terseness. It may steepen the initial ramp, but is a blessing thereafter, brother Bob! I neither like or dislike b09... it's just been too long since I have used it. I recall that as Basics went, it was pretty slick. Major drawbacks are the availabilty of reusable code (i.e. linkable libraries), requirement for life support (Runb), and non-portability. Pete #: 5612 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 10:41:46 Sb: #5596-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 I don't like a lot of little modules around either... just cuz an mdir looks messy . What OS9 needs is what OS9000 has: the in-memory module directories. #: 5539 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 06:11:33 Sb: #5510-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, I understand your need to detect carrier, but that should be done in the driver and not the applications. I know the current ACIAPAK doesn't do that, but one should have been written that does. (The Level II upgrade has one). Then again, I have never seen the need for a carrier detect. I have users logging into my system all the time via UUCP or interactively and I have rarely had any problem with applications not ending when they hangup. Of course, these are all knowledgeable people, probably more so than the average BBS user (not to malign them). This is not to say that you are wrong to do that. You took care of the situation in the best means available to you. On another note, you mentioned to Kevin about keeping a signal from breaking a loop so you could finish it first and then take care of the signal. I don't think it a good idea to mask them, even if you can. I never tried it myself. What you can do is setup you signal handler to just set a flag that a signal was received and then return to your loop. Once you exit the loop, check for the flag and the go service the signal. Hmmm....you're programming in BASIC09 which doesn't return to the spot in the code where the signal was received. I guess this is not going to work. Perhaps you should start using "C"?? This is one example where BASIC09 just can't cut it against "C". Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 5568 S15/Hot Topics 26-Jul-90 00:02:14 Sb: #5539-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X) yes but so far i am not to good with C. I KNOW I will have to learn it but for my BBS I found that Basic09 will do the job very well. the loops that would need signals masked would last for about .1 seconds so it wouldn't take much... ahh ill have to see what happens when i code it into the MM/1 Mike #: 5546 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 15:12:18 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve - I expect I'll be there as well, at least for a bit! (MM/1 co). Pete #: 5558 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 19:45:13 Sb: #5450-MM/1 Conference Fm: John Dickey 76537,2631 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve, Count me in please John Dickey Susquehanna QBS #: 5554 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 18:56:00 Sb: #Tandy takes on PS/1 Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all [edited from BUSINESS WIRE announcement] Tandy Corp. Wednesday introduced the Tandy 1000 RL -- "the first personal computer with unique home management programs so practical and simple that it can become an essential part of family life." Sold at Tandy's more than 7,000 Radio Shack(R) stores nationwide, the price of the ready-to-use systems range from $750 to $1,299. In addition to the computer's built-in tutorial programs, Radio Shack personnel have been specially trained to work individually with customers who have a question. A dedicated team of computer experts is set up at Tandy's Fort Worth, Texas, headquarters for store representatives to contact for quick, on-the-spot solutions. Customers with a telephone modem can communicate with the technicians themselves. The "RL" comes with 24 built-in programs developed especially to make everyday home tasks easier. Also, it is fully PC-compatible and will run other business and personal software programs. Its unique comprehensive approach to the home and its ease of use has earned it the "Good Housekeeping Seal." There is 1 Reply. #: 5560 S15/Hot Topics 25-Jul-90 20:01:43 Sb: #5554-Tandy takes on PS/1 Fm: Wayne Day 76703,376 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) And, a bit more information is available in "1000RL.ANN", in the Products/ Reviews Library of TandyPro (GO TANDYPRO). Wayne #: 5584 S15/Hot Topics 26-Jul-90 17:14:11 Sb: #OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul - In scanning the OSK docs, I noted that the Tsmon provided is a clone of the OS9-Net oriented Mtsmon (Microware's - not mine/Carl's).. In looking at it, I *think* I noted that password files are STILL not using encrypted password fields! Can this be true? Please tell me no... Also - if the 'fix' is simply to adjust the attributes on the PW file for root-only read, that's no fix. All the password related C functions (Unix, Kreider LIB, and possibly soon to be OSK LIB) won't care for that at all. Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5604 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 05:23:04 Sb: #5584-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Hi Pete! In TOP3.tz in DL12 is a complete tsmon (mmon), login, password, etc system using encrypted passwords. I use an earlier version and its great. Know several other OSK users using the latest version and they're also happy. (Just my 2 cents). Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 5611 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 09:46:30 Sb: #5604-OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed - Good news! It's that a functional A for B replacement of the existing [M]Tsmon? Compatible in all ways except password encryption? I can't believe that uWare is still missing that boat after all this time. Pete #: 5606 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 07:18:07 Sb: #5485-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 Keving! Thanks for your response. Where can I get hold of the drystones test routine for OSK? Ed #: 5607 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 07:23:26 Sb: #5488-#CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Hi Keven! We ran additional test on the 68010 VME machine under Basic 1.2 and 3.2. The tests under 1.2 confirmed the original results. Under 2.1, there was a 1 second improvement when k = 20,000 (integer) - otherwise the results were the same. Further investigation revealed the machine originally ran at 8.0 MHz. The memory chips were 150 ns. The processor board was upgraded to 12/16 MHz but the memory chips were not changed. The system probably operates with several (2 or 3) 'wait' states. This invalidates the tests and reference to this data should be deleted. BTW, for completness and accuracy - I erred in the Basic Version for the 68030 tests. The version of Basic was 2.1 *NOT* 2.3. Also a note should be added to the effect that the 68030 machine had a math coprocessor installed. Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 5613 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 10:44:15 Sb: #5607-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Thanks for the update, Ed! #: 5621 S15/Hot Topics 27-Jul-90 21:24:30 Sb: #5609-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Algol 68 was an option? What system were you using? I'm an Algol 68 fan, and would be interested in implementations. There is 1 Reply. #: 5645 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 10:23:35 Sb: #5621-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) James - HP 9000, I believe. I don't know if THEY haf the compiler or not. It was an option available to us (many use PC's or systems at their employers).. Pete #: 5751 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 01:10:08 Sb: #5609-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Yes, Brother Pete, it is sort of like a religious conversion. Interesting languages you're being exposed to. Not too many years ago I took an intro computer course of folks studing Arts and guess what lanuages they taught us: Basic and APL. When I recall APL I take back all my catty comment about C being cryptic. #: 5651 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 11:48:05 Sb: #5539-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X) ~ Well until I learn C better BASIC09 will have to do, besides I am not "up" for re-writing 100+ pages of source code into C yet! (I do have a deadline to get this to the MM/1 ya know! ) #: 5634 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 06:19:03 Sb: #5080-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, I'm not sure that REXX would be better, and I'm not even sure it should be compared with basic. I _do_ think it is something that would greatly enhance the MM/1. Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 5740 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 22:20:22 Sb: #5634-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Heheh, you're right. comparing Arexx with BASIC is like comparing a semi-truck with a boxcar. :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5637 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 06:19:19 Sb: #5509-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 (X) Mike, I've got a short patch to ACIAPAK that returns current carrier status in the B register when using the SSComSt getstat. I never did get around to uploading it (for various reasons) but if you're interested I can mail it to you. (I doubt you'll need it on the MM/1, though! ;-) Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 5650 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 11:47:44 Sb: #5637-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) I have that patch and it didn't work for me at all... besides its a non-standrd fix and the MM/1 doesn't really need it anyway. I appreciate the offer though. Mike There is 1 Reply. #: 5658 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 12:42:02 Sb: #5650-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 Mike, That's the main reason I never posted it (its not standard). I'm not sure why it never worked for you, but I guess it doesn't matter now, does it? I doubt there will be any problem with getting port status on the MM/1. Bill #: 5628 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 01:30:22 Sb: #MM/1 question? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul Ward 73477,2004 Paul; After reading the text of the CO the other night, I'm sorry that I didn't make it. Sounded like a good one. Something that I've never seen mentioned, but am roally curious about after playing with Bruce MacKenzie's fractal program for a while... will/does the MM/1 have a socket for a math co-processor? This would make a lot of programs _really_ fly! Here's somefhing else that may interest you if you're really serious about the workstation market : (Wall St. Journal 7/24/90 pg B1) >> Edsun Laboratories Inc., Waltham Mass announces new graphics chip >> collaboration with Analog Devices, Inc. of Norwood Mass. >> boosts quality of PC displays to level of expensive workstations for < $20 >> smooths out jagged edges on curves and diagonal lines >> incremental shading of each pixel smooths the edges >> directly manipulates the video signals to expand color palette >> requires no additional memory and chip plugs into standard graphics boards >> almost photo-quality images Sounds almosn too good to be true, eh? ..Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 5663 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 15:25:37 Sb: #5628-#MM/1 question? Fm: Wendell Benedetti 72766,2605 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, Do you have any more details about the graphic chip? And was the $20 price correct? Wendell There is 1 Reply. #: 5721 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 08:27:13 Sb: #5663-MM/1 question? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Wendell Benedetti 72766,2605 (X) Wendell; No more info... sorry. That's basically what I read in the newsclip, alth ugh I did see a later one stating that the price would probably be in the $15 range (probably in large quantities, tho). If your interest DOES spark a call to Edsun, would you post any further info here on ehe forum? ...Jim #: 5631 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 04:45:00 Sb: #5611-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Hi Pete! Not quite. I think you have to use their 'system' - several programs are involved and I don't think you can slip one of their programs in and continue using MW's. (Unless you patch.) Pull top6.ar in dl12. The docs are pretty complete for mmon & log*o*n. Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 5646 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 10:24:57 Sb: #5631-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Thanks Ed - Geex... I hate to see that kind of mistake propagated forever. Can't believe that day to day Unix users (MW) would let that slip through. Pete There are 2 Replies. #: 5674 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jul-90 04:00:26 Sb: #5646-OSK - passwords? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete - Know what you mean. Well - come the revolution and we take over MW we can do things RIGHT!!! Ed #: 5703 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jul-90 05:44:38 Sb: #5646-OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Oh, and my OSK login sw is compatible/swappable with MW's stuff... #: 5702 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jul-90 05:43:01 Sb: #5584-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Yes, password files are STILL not encrypted... But I already have ported my software to OSK to fix this. And maybe I can work a deal to get a version of it released with the MM1. Listening Paul? The password file I am running is currently pr, (but can be -pr if you want) and yet does not pose any security problems for users other than group 0. My library with handling routines for all this *will* be made PD very soon, as I am quite satisfied that it is working properly. As a side note, I am also working on a .dat type password with indexes for username and realname that will make lookups of users faster when you have over 1000, as my CoCo3 system right now is having difficulty with. Would you like to B-test the sw? StG There is 1 Reply. #: 5712 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jul-90 07:54:48 Sb: #5702-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) Scott - My biggest question is: "are your routines SYSV/BSD compatible?" So much code breaks when porting to systems that use 'custom' approaches. That's one reason why most of the Kreider Lib enhancements are based upon similar Unix functions. PW file routines are used MUCH more frequently than just at login (i.e. looking up a username, find their home] directory, changing their password, etc.), and it's crucial that we all use a well defined, common approach. Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5715 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jul-90 19:06:38 Sb: #5712-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Well, if you want to use a well defined, comman approach, then you tie yourself down to not making any improvements. I don't honestly know whether or not my code is Unix compatible... are you refering to the way it's written or the way it works? I can tell you it's fully compatible with the way OS9 currently uses it's password file format, the way it sets up environment variables, etc. Quite frankly, I don't give a hoot about being unix-compatible. I want to be better than unix - and if I have to break some obscure rule about the way one's code has to be written, so be it. However, I do prescribe to all the common OS9 rules about writing good code, i.e. staying between the lines, don't poke around with other people's memory, etc. I looked at Kreider's lib once way back, but found it very combersome to the way I wanted to program. Nothing at all against Carl, of course - I think he's done a fine job, just followed a different path. My libraries are of my own making though, and are not directly compatible with either unix standard (Sys5 or BSD). Some people might dismiss them immediately then on that grounds. The last 6809 version has already been released, and those people who started using it congratulated me on it's format. I guess the question is, do you want to be compatible or better? StG There is 1 Reply. #: 5723 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 08:36:22 Sb: #5715-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) I disagree... I suggest that the optimum position is "be compatible if possible; if not, then design something worthy of becoming a standard." I hear what you're saying, but your presentation comes across such that you'd just rather be a maverick anyway. Frankly, the days of the hot pants programmer are over.. modularity (in a global sense), software engineering considerations, and team playing have replaced the gentlemen with the holy T-shirts, doing their thing under a 60 watt bulb, with a can of Jolt in hand, until 4 in the morning. I believe we had a similar discussion a year or so ago... Pete There are 2 Replies. #: 5746 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 23:41:52 Sb: #5723-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Yah, we agree to disagree. Quite frankly, I don't like a lot of the way Unix has done things. Although I will admit to getting into termcap more recently. I agree with modularity, enginering, and team playing (to an extent). But I don't believe that we should adopt Unix standards just because they're unix standards. We can create our own standards better than that. If you want to compile a unix program, okay then, but if you want to do something better, you may be limited with the Unix stuff. For example, *none* of my software uses printf(). Or any C standard I/O for that matter. Why? Overhead. Bigger code, slower speed. Plus all the problems involved in trying to talk to a specialized device with only C std. I see a program with scanf in it, I won't touch it. Can't stand the way it inputs. But hey, if you're into beating yourself... Oh, and I don't program to all hours of the night and keep myself up with caffiene (never did use Jolt, but used to live on Dew's and Milky's back in college). But I have long since adopted quite normal hours, normal (actually extremely healthy) eating habits, etc. But I still don't believe in doing more work just to be compatible with the Unix standard. Believe it or not, the majority of my coding (the exception being stuff tied to OS9 features) is portable to PC's and Unix. I work with all three, though write primarily for OS9. To give you an example of why I *know* my attitude pays off, I have just recently taken over a job doing some C coding for an outfit with COM (Computer Output Microfiche) units. They are using PC's to read in huge amounts of stuff from magtape, process, and feed to the fiche machines. The guy they had working on the project before me was formally trained, and firmly entrenched (sp?) in the 'standard, compatible, *unix*' way of doing things. They had lots of problems with his code slowing the works down, which is a major problem if you've got a half gig file to process (I'm not kidding!) and at the max rate of the magtape transfer it will take all day anyways. (cotd next) There is 1 Reply. #: 5755 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 06:38:03 Sb: #5746-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) Scott, UNIX is not some sort of omnipotent system that all others are forced to follow, but it has been around for a very long time and is very solid. OS9 has had the chance to improve upon UNIX and has in many ways. However, the maverick programmer that claims to do it all differently and better usually is a flash in the pan. Pete and other old timers here have seen many come and go. Those that "follow the standards" and evolve as the standards evolve are almost always still there generating good code years later. The problem is with your statement of creating new standards. Whose standards might these be? Yours we can presume. However, no one but you have seen these proposed standards nor any of your claimed faster and better routines. The proof comes when there is something to accomply the claim. So I'd say the time is ripe to put your money where your mouth is. If you really have routines that are that much better, then I'm sure everyone will be loss of income, then how about a simple example of one of your best, like your replacement for printf()? Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 5762 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 17:48:04 Sb: #5755-OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 >no one but you have seen these A large number of people (okay, about 5 or 6 I know of) have and are using the libraries I wrote. I was planning on uploading the entire set anyways, I'll just get to it a little faster now. My replacement for printf is not something I revel in. That is an example of a case where I have had to follow the "OS9" standard of using writeln/ readln calls, but needed to adjust to zero terminated strings used in C. I have two functions, rdln() and wrln(), which are exact replacements of the standard readln() and writeln(), except that they take 0 termination. I use these primarily, instead of printf, as a lot of stuff is line based and works a heck of a lot faster without the extra overhead of printf and standard i/o. I have duplicates to these routines which work the same in Unix and PC. For conversion of numeric variables to their ascii expressions, I have the routines char *dec(num,digits), and decl(), hex, hexl(). I tend to build strings into a buffer with strcpy and then wrln() it. I suppose I could write a routine to handle this a little easier, but it would seldom be useful as the overhead would again be there. I will admit to using sprintf() on a few occasions where space/speed is not a consideration. As for input routines, I always write routines to do the specific function required. That way I don't have to contend with scanf's oddities. StG #: 5747 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 23:47:07 Sb: #5723-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) (cotd) Anyways, this guy wrote his conversion routine with C std I/O, fully BSD compatible, etc. At the rate his program ran, it would take 5 days to process the file. Needless to say, I was able to take date from the magtape flat out. And my version of the same program can be easily converted to run on OS9 or Unix. Well, you get the idea. StG There is 1 Reply. #: 5758 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 08:33:39 Sb: #5747-#OSK - passwords? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) Scott - There's a saying in the industry (and probably in several industries) that states: "Standards are wonderful, especially because there are so many to choose from". I'm guessing that needs no additional garnishment or explanation. I never said we should chain ourselves to Unix. I just said, be compatible with it wherever *possible*. If the situation truly dictates a fresh approach, so be it. On the issue of _you_ developing what you think may be candidates for being a standard in the future.... hmmm. If you really are interested in that sort of work, I think your approach is off. Standards are not evolved or developed in a vaccum. Why haven't you solicited input, or asked for discussion on design strategies with the OS9 community as a whole if this is your intent? If you just want to develop your own libraries, and code uniquely, that's certainly your option. If you want to try to replace existing standard methods, that's a whole different ball game. I can't understand the non-use of printf().. if you were so concerned about its performance overhead, then you could have written a replacement printf that could be linked in in its stead. That's perfectly legitimate S/W engineering practice. You implied that you don't even use printf().. if that's the case (unless you're just using write(), which can ultimately be more expensive), your library/approach wil break programs for years to come. Is it worth an x% speed increase to force a rewrite of a program? Not in most situations (exceptions are possible). And I know about speed and real time requirements.. I used to be lead S/W engineer for the Tartar Mk 76 surface missile systems (Navy). Pete P.S. I never did receive the first issue of the OSK'er, yet I had given you my name and address here. It's 524 Kitty St, Newbury Park, CA, 91320. There is 1 Reply. #: 5763 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 17:58:01 Sb: #5758-OSK - passwords? Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Your OSKer is on the way, I remember your name was in the last batch of 400 to go out. I am not really interested in creating a standard, and certainly not in libraries. The way I see it, programmers should create their own set of library functions to suit themselves. Of course, this leads to the problem of giving sombody else your code, which is the whole reason for standards. I prescribe to the standards, just not those using any C std i/o. The standard for that I/O is IMHO completely antiquated, and has almost always given me more problems than going completely low level i/o. Which is actually starting to become more of a standard itself with things like . I'm attacking the Unix standards because they're an annoyance. If I was writing only for Unix, okay then. But I'm writing for OS9, where all this formatted I/O is primarily wastful (again, IMHO). But then, I can complain about the techniques of the majority of programmers out there too. I'm just overly picky. If it aint perfect (or nearly so), it aint good enough to use. Hey, I'm not even satisfied with OS9, but I use it because it's the best available. That just me, see... StG #: 5633 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 06:19:01 Sb: #Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, You would have to be really good at C (like Pete ;-) to whip up small things quickly. I have been working extensively with C the last few months, but when it comes to quick stuff I still use either asm or basic. At least for me, a C program takes longer to get to the point where it actually does something. Maybe its all in my head, but it seems that a C program needs a lot more thought put into the intial design. You test stuff in basic, then rewrite it in asm, I test it in asm (sometimes basic) then write it in C! Each to his own, I guess. :-) Bill There are 2 Replies. #: 5659 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 13:40:14 Sb: #5633-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Bill - (blush) - well GAWRSH! Actually, I keep a mental (and to some extent) physical C template around for easy whipping up of quick code: includes externs declarations arg parsing main loop, including arg based file opening Then you can pretty much fill in the blanks. With as short a edit/compile/debug cycle as you get with hard/RAM disks, C development is really pretty quick. And because it _is_ C, you can also drag it to work with you and work on it there (try that with B09/ASM). Of course, you could log in and work on it! Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5665 S15/Hot Topics 28-Jul-90 19:44:41 Sb: #5659-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete, I just haven't reached that level (mentally) with C yet. I hope that some day I do, because inevitably, many of the quick and dirty utilities I write end up as part of something not so quick and dirty. Also it doesn't make sense most of the time to test out something in one language knowing that I have to convert it to another (especially going from a lower level language to a higher level language!) Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 5683 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jul-90 12:51:47 Sb: #5665-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Agreed -... one of the hardest things to accept about C (or any of the function-based languages) is that you typically do have to map out a strategy in advance. Those of us who were used to programming by the seat of our pants (i.e. on the fly) initially rejected this approach as being too stiff and arduous. It's really whatever you're used to (or GET used to). I find that prototyping in C is a breeze because you can 'stub' off whole lower levels and just get the flow of your program up and working first. Classic top-down design, and conceptually simple as well. I have great faith in you Bill... if you can work on Mtsmon, you're a lot sharper C programmer than you give yourself credit for! Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5686 S15/Hot Topics 29-Jul-90 13:59:12 Sb: #5683-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete, Now its my turn.... Thanks for the vote of confidence. Actually I have become fairly proficient at C programming over the last year or so. And almost everything I learned was from hacking on your's and Carl's code, like cc, mtsmon, and its suite of utilities, among other things. And I agree, C is by far the best language for developing software using a top down approach. I just need to practice more at using it for short and simple stuff. Bill #: 5741 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 22:20:38 Sb: #5633-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Geez, I cannot possibly imagine anything in ASM being faster to put together than in C! Especially since I tend to steal from stuff I've already written (I haven't written any routines to open windows, for example, in some time). But, I guess it's what you're used to --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5756 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 07:06:50 Sb: #5741-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 I've been programming with asm on quite a number of different machines from mainframes to the CoCo, for the last 15 years. So, yes, you might say I'm used to it! As I mentioned to Pete, I am trying to get myself more oriented towards using C for everything, but sometimes its just easier (not better, just easier) to write it in assembler. Bill #: 5717 S15/Hot Topics 30-Jul-90 19:15:29 Sb: #Help Wanted Fm: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 To: all\ It's coming up on the deadline for the next issue of the OSKer, and I could use a few more issues... Anybody who can (PLEASE?!) sit down at a keyboard for a few minutes and hack out a few paragraphs about something, by all means please do and send it too me. If it's about OS9 or any related topic, it's printable. And, anybody who get's printed gets 6 months free of the OSKer! Right now I'm working on an article about OS/2 vs. OS9/K, but if somebody has some great ideas on this, I would be happy to turn over my research and let them write it... Other things I need: A getting started in OS9 (or K) column, Basic09/BasicK programs, or programs of any form for that matter... Thanks for your support! StG There is 1 Reply. #: 5767 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 21:50:21 Sb: #5717-Help Wanted Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 Scott, I'd love to help, but the MM/1 will be my first OS/9 computer! Now, if I had a copy of OS/9 68K for the Amiga to review... Or maybe CDTV vs CD-I... but that's as close as I can come, right now :( --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 5742 S15/Hot Topics 31-Jul-90 22:20:59 Sb: #SIGGRAPH & CDTV ? Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X) It looks like I'll be attending SIGGRAPH in Dallas the 7-9th, and will, of course, be hanging around the Commodore Booth. Since there's a big interest here (I think :) for CD-I, are there any questions you 'd like me to ask, or things for me to look for concerning the CDTV, should there be one there? (I'm fairly certain that they will have one there). If so, please let me know, I'll make a note of them and be sure to ask. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 5750 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 00:40:38 Sb: #5742-SIGGRAPH & CDTV ? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Hey! I'm not positive, but we may be down in Dallas around the same time! Let me check first. - kev #: 5771 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 23:44:55 Sb: #5584-OSK - passwords? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Pete, I think you are right -- no encryption. I don't mind setting a new standard here. After all, we need to thing Real World here. If you wish to propose that we use Carl's thingie, let's make it official and post it on the DL16 as a MUST READ THIS STANDARD file. Paul #: 5789 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 08:53:41 Sb: #5762-OSK - passwords? Fm: Carl Kreider 71076,76 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) Re: high level vs. low level ..... You sound a lot like I did shortly after my conversion from assembler to C. At the time I was writing on a LI machine so there was some basis for the speed/space argument. I even rewrote the MW library in assembler to get speed up and size down. It made a very big difference in printf. One day I discovered that stream I/O is generally much faster than write[ln] (due to the buffering). I gradually gave up swimming upstream and opted for the easier to use and faster high level I/O. But it is nice to see that the religious fervor and enthusiasm of youth still exists. Sometimes it is fun to do it your own way just because you want to. Carl #: 5812 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 01:04:16 Sb: #5762-OSK - passwords? Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Scott t. Griepentrog 72427,335 (X) I wonder if we are discussing standards, or just alternate ways of doing things. After all, if you want to use wrln() instead of the library function fgets(), so what? There is nothing non-standard here. However, if you change a standard library function so that it takes different arguments - then I can see problems arising. I've seen a number of complaints about using buffered i/o. I'm certainly not a C-guru, but I wonder if this is valid. By buffering C avoids multiple calls to the OS9 system (which is full of overhead). In many of my RMA programs I have had to devise my own buffering systems - in C it is already done. Why not use it? So far as printf() goes, yes it is a tad slow and large. Unless I have a lot of formatted I/O then I find it just as effecient to call the conversion functions and cat my own strings. It just depends. #: 5864 S15/Hot Topics 05-Aug-90 03:19:13 Sb: #5712-OSK - passwords? Fm: Robert A. Larson 75126,723 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Creating new standards when there is a real need is fine, but I don't realy think the posix/unix password routines have major problems that can't be solved in an upward-compatable manner. (Posix is an effort to standardize what is good in unix without actually specifying that you must be unix...) If and when I write my own login package, it will use a publicly readable file for most information, and store encrypted passwords in a non-readable file. There is a lot of free software writen for unix that can be ported to os9, and making things like password files compatable makes porting them easier and more likly. Someday I may release the library I'm working on that aids in porting unix programs to os9/68k. #: 5772 S15/Hot Topics 01-Aug-90 23:47:31 Sb: #5628-MM/1 question? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, Interesting about that new video technology! A math coprocessor can be used as a peripheral on the bus. Let us know if you REALLY need one once you get an MM/1. Paul #: 5775 S15/Hot Topics 02-Aug-90 00:13:12 Sb: #5751-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) Bob; Butting in here... The APL II guys at work are something else! It's like they're in a whole different world than the rest of us. ;-) We tend to rib them about writing in Sanskrit - that's about as intelligible as it appears to outsiders! Did you ever become proficient at it? As cryptic as it appears, they can whip out a report-type program in about half the time it takes us using more conventional languages, so I guess it isn't without value. ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )= U There is 1 Reply. #: 5811 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 01:03:59 Sb: #5775-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) What, me proficient at APL. No way! As I recall I got to the point where I could get the largest number of an array and sort it, etc. I think I even managed to print out a calendar (from someone elses source), but I never got into it at all. If memory serves me right a real old issue of 80-micro had an APL interpreter written in Basic! An interesting language, but somehow I don't think it will ever become mainstream. Out of interest, what kind of things are your APL guys doing? There is 1 Reply. #: 5831 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 13:16:26 Sb: #5811-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) Bob; The APL II guys mostly generate reports from DB2 data. Agree that it most likely won't ever be 'mainstream', but those that DO use it are almost as fanatical about it as we are about OS-9! ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )= U #: 5795 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 16:46:02 Sb: #5544-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) In my experience, just about any change in the source adds abt 3k to the executable. In B09, same change adds 10-20 bytes. (I realize that you can optimize the ASM source if you C compile to that first). There are 2 Replies. #: 5801 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 17:50:41 Sb: #5795-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) Bill - The initial startup code runs 3-5K. Subsequent to that, the first use of a new function adds ?.?k bytes as a one time cost. Since the adoption of the Kreider Libraries, that cost has been reduced, as functions are written as economically as possible in RMA. I don't want to turn this into a contest, but adding 3k to an executable per "change in the source" is probably not a supportable statement, at least not as a freestanding generalization. If you had no code, then added 'printf()' to it, you'd incur a 3-5K penalty.... one time. Likewise with another complex function (like 'scanf()')... but again, only one time. Most functions are not NEARLY that expensive, and only penalize you on their first use (subsequent uses are effectively free, barring the stack frame setup and jsr instructions.) My point is not that C is better than B09 (although B09 will cost you 12K minimum, for Runb), nor vice versa. My point is simply that C isn't as unruly as you suggest in terms of memory usage. Pete P.S. Can you tell I've been on jury duty all week? There are 2 Replies. #: 5805 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 21:30:04 Sb: #5801-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) No Pete, I thought you was just being yer old self. Anyhow, my tests here *have* shown... & I did use added printf functions, that, on average, I picked up 3k in the executables. Now then I was using the MW libs. When I compiled to ASM, & looked at the source, I saw many repeats of what looked like similar code. Now... I don't think that you can say that B09 is "better" than C or vice versa. Like are apples better than oranges? Your point is well taken, (I concede), that "C isn't as unruly....". I really shoulda known that things have changed in the last two years. Now.... I've got a Hard Drive problem. (HELP!). All of a sudden I'm picking up read errors on my ST225. (random files, all parts of the drive). I'm using Bruces Eliminator & WD1005G setup. Question is... should I just go ahead & reformat & restore? or given those symptoms, is that likely to do any good? Mabye I should look for other probs before I give up? BTW Bruce is out of town. There is 1 Reply. #: 5829 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 12:55:28 Sb: #5805-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) Bill - Depends on the class of problems... if they're just 243's (CRC errors), frequently reading and then rewriting the sector will fix it. If they are 241's, 244's (worse yet 245's), I'd consider an exodus backup, and then a reformat & restore. Pete There is 1 Reply. #: 5844 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 17:40:09 Sb: #5829-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) Thanks Pete. They are all 244's. I'll do a format & restore. #: 5816 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 08:30:57 Sb: #5801-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Pete Lyall 76703,4230 (X) The phrase "freestanding generalization" was a clue! ;-) Bill #: 5802 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 18:01:16 Sb: #5795-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) Wow! 3K for one change? That would be true if calls to new functions were added, but not at all true if no new functions were used in the changes. For large scale projects, that do lots of different things, including lots of math and function calls, then the resulting B09 object MIGHT be smaller, but probably not by much. I have seen some large B09 programs, and would MUCH rather use C! (and I used to think that C was cryptic) It IS important that a C programmer be at least partially aware of the asm code generated, as how the C program is coded may make a drastic change in object size or speed of the program. This isn't any where near as critical for B09 code. Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 5806 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 21:33:33 Sb: #5802-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) See my reply to Pete. BTW, any idea why my ProAcia users are getting system hangs when they TERM the driver *after* installing Bruce's "improved" clock module? There is 1 Reply. #: 5819 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 09:04:00 Sb: #5806-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) I can't think of any reason it should hang. The way Bruce explained it to me, the new clock module does some things with the GIME that the original ACIAPAK (and I assume PROACIA) had to do. He was fairly sure that while it was no longer necessary for the serial driver to do these things, it wouldn't hurt anything if it did. I wonder if the original ACIAPAK works with the clock module? Bill There is 1 Reply. #: 5824 S15/Hot Topics 04-Aug-90 11:47:09 Sb: #5819-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Good question re the original ACIAPAK. Dunno if it is affected. #: 5794 S15/Hot Topics 03-Aug-90 16:42:29 Sb: #5535-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) I'd be blissful with syscall! But your idea would be a great enhancement. BTW I need to talk to you on the tele. The State of Iowa has issued an RFP to us for one of our Permit Testing Systems. Is now the time to convert to OS-9000? (you know how I hate Novell/MessyDos!) #: 5868 S15/Hot Topics 05-Aug-90 10:58:02 Sb: #5606-#CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed If you would like I will upload the 68000 executable. It is important that we all use the same executable module as the source can be modified to give other results. However If you would like to compile it with the GNU c compiler for the purpose of comparing compiler speed rather than processor speed I will upload the source to you also. However we need to use the same executable when comparing 68k computer speeds. Kevin Pease 70516,1633 There is 1 Reply. #: 5869 S15/Hot Topics 05-Aug-90 11:49:11 Sb: #5868-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 Kevin - Will appreciate the executable - Don't have the GNU c compiler although I'm supposed to be getting a copy soon. Yes, I agree. We *HAVE* to make sure all tests are identical!! Thanks, Ed #: 6018 S15/Hot Topics 12-Aug-90 11:29:44 Sb: #5409-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Mark Griffith 76070,41 (X) OK Mark. Well as I said, "I hope I don't HAVE to," and will certainly try not to POKE the I/O and such. And I will certainly warn others of the consequences in portability and the hazards -- thanks for reminding me about the "Level 1" vulerability. So far I've worked it out with the MM/1 hardware folks that honest /MIDI device drivers will permit not only playing, but even recording, with no funny business. So yes, you can count on my support. The trick is to support each other into getting the HW/SW developers of the MM1 to put in the system routines that will make it un-attractive to cheat. BTW, UltiMusE-III "cheats" in only one place -- writing directly to the serial and parallel MIDI ports on the Coco3. Everything else is system calls. VDG screens are "legit" too (tho I don't want to rewrite all that grafix code for the MM/1, and Kev D already has it to the point where I don't need to.) Say, thyanks for the flattery -- it works, grin. --mike k Hope to meet you in Atlanta -- you going? There is 1 Reply. #: 6066 S15/Hot Topics 12-Aug-90 22:04:50 Sb: #6018-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mark Griffith 76070,41 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, Hmmmm....it's been so long since I left that message I almost forgot what you were talking about (grin). Yeah, I'd like to meet you too. Don't know if I'll be in Atlanta, but I am certainly going to try. Mark #: 6022 S15/Hot Topics 12-Aug-90 11:49:30 Sb: #5527-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 OK -- VARPTRT is called ADDR. Yes, Kev D points out that PEEK/POKE don't get much use. It's a tribute to OS9's sys calls that you don't need them much, but they are there if someone wants to [ab-]use them. I see C's libraries as a strenght -- choose the one(s) you want. Maintainability is kept thru shared header files (DEFs style), something B09 sorely lacks. Of course some discipline and good style are needed, or C can turn into assembly-grade mess. But then look how many big porograms have been done fine in assembler (like our favorite OS, grin). --mike k #: 6021 S15/Hot Topics 12-Aug-90 11:44:35 Sb: #5524-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 OK Bill. Global vars in B09 require some big sttrucutre (oops, TYPE) that you pass as an arg to every procedure. But you're right, with all those structured Basics popping up on the PCs, it's nice to brag that we were there long before. I just find B09 awkward to wrok with. Probably could improve my attitude a LOT by using a real editor in another window, re-LOADing each fix, instead of messing with the built-in editor. Seriously, Microware really should update that editor for fullscreen. But if you use it only for quick fixes, what the heck. B09 desparately needs an an "include" or "Use" file thingie so TYPEs can be defined the same in all procedures. Also Microware should do a compiler from I-code to binary -that would give the PC crowd a run for their money. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 6035 S15/Hot Topics 12-Aug-90 16:53:13 Sb: #6021-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - I'm with you on the "include/use" thingie for B09. A while back I meant to find the editor section of basic, and add a fullscreen option. Guess we should take another look at trying that. Also had planned a different approach: adding some kind of weird mode to SCFman's I$ReadLn routine (over and above the fancier line editing) which would know to do a "-" to go up one line and a ">cr<" to go down one, etc. Thx for reminder. #: 6074 S15/Hot Topics 13-Aug-90 00:32:43 Sb: #5869-#CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed as soon as I get a chance I will upload the executable to you. As a side note I got the MM/1 with fast memory to run 1050 drystones/sec which is real close to what the PT68K at 12.5 mhz ran. Kevin Pease There is 1 Reply. #: 6081 S15/Hot Topics 13-Aug-90 04:27:12 Sb: #6074-CoCo/OSK Basic(09) Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 Sounds real good - Now we need Frank to run the test on his machine. I'll await your upload. Ed #: 6126 S15/Hot Topics 14-Aug-90 17:04:17 Sb: #SIGGRAPH & CDTV Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling 76703,4227 (X) Well, got back from SIGGRAPH almost a week ago... very impressive show... While I was at the CBM booth (watching a demo of Disney Animation Studio), a couple folks came up and started talking to the demonstrator... seems they were CD-I developers, and were most impressed with CDTV. They were doing some of their CD-I development on Amigas, and what pleased them most about CDTV (and concerned them most about CD-I) was the ease of development for CDTV compared to CD-I. One of the CBM reps I spoke with said that a couple people from Philips had stopped by (I recall seeing a Philips booth, but nothing CD-I-ish) and were worried by CDTV... but, consider the source, not exactly an unbiased comment. Look at almost any standard CD player at your local radio-shack, btw, and you'll see what CDTV looks like. Since visiting SIGGRAPH, I've become a firm believer in the future of this genre (CDTV/CD=I)... If anybody wants further details about the CDTV (ports, compatibility, peripherals, software, etc), ask. While this is the appropriate forum for discussing interactive cd technology, I don't think it'd be right for me to talk about CDTV over here except in the context of answering questions. --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. There is 1 Reply. #: 6138 S15/Hot Topics 14-Aug-90 23:24:18 Sb: #6126-#SIGGRAPH & CDTV Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Williams 72157,3524 (X) Jim, I agree of course... interactive TV/CDROM is gonna work out well. You can talk about CDTV all you want over here... we're all Motorola lovers. I mean, there's no reason why OS-9 can't run on the Commodore unit . Just talked to some CD-I backers. Interestingly, they weren't at all fazed by CDTV. They will of course closely watch how well things go in the market at first. Should be fun. Also was talking to some CBM programmers, who noted that the CDTV demos were done using off-the-shelf Amiga applications quickly thrown onto CDROM. That's easy development, yah. - kev PS: you might want to drop the "Director of Mayhem" signature around here. People here don't know that your company writes games, and probably look at you strangely . There is 1 Reply. #: 6171 S15/Hot Topics 16-Aug-90 22:21:45 Sb: #6138-SIGGRAPH & CDTV Fm: Jim Williams 72157,3524 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Well, I'm used to strange looks (at least they'll remember me :)... actually, I don't do the DoM signature, Whap does... and it only does one for the whole of CIS, even in fora where I'd rather not. :) --Eet-- Director of Mayhem Extra Terrestrial Imports, Ltd. #: 6229 S15/Hot Topics 20-Aug-90 20:25:42 Sb: #6021-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Yup, you've added some things to the list! BTW, I use Dynastar for my editor, although I use the B09 E for global search & replace. #: 6230 S15/Hot Topics 20-Aug-90 20:29:13 Sb: #6022-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Sorry Mike, you missed my point about maintainability. I meant like six months later when you have to get a different programmer to make a change. Heck, I can't even decipher my *own* code six *days* later. Ever try to get Carl Krieder (bless his heart), to make a change to one of his C progs? :) #: 6396 S15/Hot Topics 30-Aug-90 05:26:18 Sb: #New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all Oh boy! Here's one that makes the Hitachi/Motorola dispute look like nothing! Gilbert Hyatt, an inventor from California, has finally received the patent he applied for back in 1970... the patent covers a "single-chip integrated circuit computer architecture" he invented in 1968. To you and me, that means he appears to have the first broad patent on the MICROPROCESSOR! The earliest previously granted patents were in 1973 from TI and Intel. Whether it will stand up to challenge or not, is yet to be seen. However, as it stands now, his patent could mean royalties for ALL microprocessors manufactured from 1970-1987! Wow. - kev There are 2 Replies. #: 6397 S15/Hot Topics 30-Aug-90 06:11:12 Sb: #6396-#New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Oops. Actually, I don't know if the patent covers the 17 years starting from 1970, or starting now that it's been issued, until 2007. Either way, this one should be fun to watch! There is 1 Reply. #: 6411 S15/Hot Topics 30-Aug-90 23:03:39 Sb: #6397-#New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Joseph Cheek 76264,142 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Sounds VERY interesting, kevin! Where'd you hear about this? Please keep us posted! There is 1 Reply. #: 6417 S15/Hot Topics 31-Aug-90 06:52:11 Sb: #6411-#New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Joseph Cheek 76264,142 (X) Joe - actually, I read it in a Newsgrid item the other night, but since then the news is all over. GO OLT90 and read up on it there, for example. Oh. And I asked a lawyer in another forum, and he said that the patent (and royalties, if he gets any) would start from now. Someone else pointed out that lawyers all over the country must be drooling over this one! There is 1 Reply. #: 6432 S15/Hot Topics 31-Aug-90 23:19:21 Sb: #6417-New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Joseph Cheek 76264,142 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Hey, thanks Kevin. Sounds VERY interesting (colossal? Kids will be reading about Washington, Lincoln, and the guy who got his MPU patent in history 10 years from now?) Wow. #: 6426 S15/Hot Topics 31-Aug-90 20:34:19 Sb: #6396-#New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Ches Looney 73016,1336 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) The articles I read said his royalties start now (at date patent was issued) not when he applied. Still looks like a big ticket if his patent withstands challenges. Big names will probably mount big challenges, though. regards, Ches. There is 1 Reply. #: 6447 S15/Hot Topics 01-Sep-90 10:10:09 Sb: #6426-#New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Ches Looney 73016,1336 (X) Ches; News tonight (8/31) said that his royalties should amount to about $68M from Intel alone with another $28M or so from Motorola -e a year! Anybody got any ideas that they'd like to patent?? ..Jim O_o AACK! =( )= U There is 1 Reply. #: 6462 S15/Hot Topics 01-Sep-90 22:46:58 Sb: #6447-New Patent on MPUs! Fm: Ches Looney 73016,1336 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) I wonder how they determine the amount of royalty. I know (correction: think I know) that it is on each piece sold, and I suppose it is a percentage - but what percentage?? Ches. #: 6477 S15/Hot Topics 03-Sep-90 08:51:49 Sb: Atlanta CoCoFEST Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: All Folks, The lastest information on the upcoming CoCoFEST in Atlanta can be found in the CoCo Forum's Library 12. Browse FESTIN.TXT for the meat and potatoes. Steve #: 6535 S15/Hot Topics 05-Sep-90 22:38:38 Sb: #6035-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) OK Kev. Glad to hear you'd already condisered hacking the B09 editor. It's too bad that B09 wasn't built "modular" like OS9 itself, so the editor, math package, etc. could be worked on separately. Ya know, as much as B09 (or MWBasic) is still used in OSK, you'd think Microware would get its own people to update that ancient and frustrating editor. And then windowize the whole thing, like Atari ST basic. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 6543 S15/Hot Topics 05-Sep-90 23:12:09 Sb: #6535-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Joseph Cheek 76264,142 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 exactly (basic09/mwbasic needs a better interface, editor). Although I disagree on you with having it modular (separate modules) would be better. I run into *lots* of trouble with packed basic09 programs (in which every separate little procedure is a different module). Although it is usually a problem because of the 64K/8K at a time barrier. I would much prefer modularity at the source level but have it combine into one package in the end, like C. #: 6538 S15/Hot Topics 05-Sep-90 22:49:27 Sb: #6229-Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) Godd -- Dynsatar is the only editor I use these days. I can see where B09's would be faster for a LOT of global changes where you were SURE that you wanted every one changed. B09 editor's one saving grace is the instant syntax error detection-other than that, it would be better if B09 forked off your favorite editor and autmoatically sic'ed it on the program in question. #: 6539 S15/Hot Topics 05-Sep-90 22:51:04 Sb: #6230-#Is Basic out of date? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 (X) About maintainability -- now I agree. Someobyd called RSBAASIC a great "write-only language." I've heard C calaled that too, grin. There is 1 Reply. #: 6613 S15/Hot Topics 09-Sep-90 04:54:21 Sb: #6539-Is Basic out of date? Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 #: 6672 S15/Hot Topics 13-Sep-90 01:47:58 Sb: MM/1 specs Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul Ward 73477,2004 Paul; I'm getting a lot of queries about the MM/1 from interested people at work, and although I can answer a lot of questions and prcvide them with your address, it'd be nice if I could post the specs and save myself some reply time. Could you upload a spec sheet with the final configuration, provided software, prices, etc. and area codes for both KLE and IMS (some of the queries are coming from overseas & the 800 number won't get it!) Thanks, ...Jim Press !> #: 6686 S15/Hot Topics 14-Sep-90 17:45:53 Sb: #6672-MM/1 specs Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 Jim, Thanks for the suggestion! I can also send you some extra brochures, if you don't mind sending them out! But please let us know to whom you send them. Paul #: 6708 S15/Hot Topics 15-Sep-90 11:37:49 Sb: #6686-MM/1 specs Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul; That'd be great. I've been monitoring some of the 'internal' forums at work and recently there's been a significant amount of interest in the MM/1 based on info that's come over ARCnet. The queries from domestic employees I can handle by giving them your 800 number, but the overseas queries present a different problem. So far, I've gotten queries from the Netherlandsn Belgium, France, and 2 from OZ. Be happy to send them info. ..Jim #: 6761 S15/Hot Topics 17-Sep-90 16:45:35 Sb: #MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Kevin Darling, 76703,4227 (X) Hiya, Kev! (grin) How's everything? NS!) I Called Multi-Media several wks ago requesting a service manual for th MM/1, & th nice lady took my name & addr & said she'd get it to appropriate person to send me info on it, but no word. I'm curious if they HAVE a service manual (yet), or if they're still workin on it etc. (grin) Do u kno anything about it? (I figure if they HAVE one, YOU HAVE it! Hehehe Tell Marsha "Hi!". (grin) Giles There is 1 Reply. #: 6762 S15/Hot Topics 17-Sep-90 18:55:32 Sb: #6761-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Giles 73347,2651 (X) Hey der Giles! Being worked on, I'd say. There are schematics and chip specs already, of course, but a service manual will probably take quite some time to do. A technical manual should be pretty easy to do tho. Besides , nothing goes wrong with OS9 machines, and how dare you to imply otherwise ? There is 1 Reply. #: 6778 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 09:15:23 Sb: #6762-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Ah yes...My apologies (grin). Musta been a TECH manual I was after! Hehe...Yah jus somethin that shows all th parts & how they work. Can u gettem to fix me up? Thx Kev. Hey, cancha come to CB band B sometimes? I'm on Mon, Wed, Fri, & Sat at 22:00. My handle is "Gentle Miant" (snicker). Well, hope to c u SOMEWHERE! (Maybe even th COCOfest!) Giles There is 1 Reply. #: 6781 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 13:13:34 Sb: #6778-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Giles 73347,2651 (X) Giles - until it's ready, you can also check with your Phillips/Signetics parts dealer, and ask for manuals on the 68070 cpu, and the 66470B Video and System Controller chip. That's enuf reading for weeks! There is 1 Reply. #: 6810 S15/Hot Topics 20-Sep-90 11:23:03 Sb: #6781-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Thx, Kev (grin)! Oh and if it's SEPARATE, I'd ALSO like tech manual on th I/O board. Gonna b at th CoCoFest? Have FUN! (grin) Giles There are 2 Replies. #: 6816 S15/Hot Topics 20-Sep-90 17:30:29 Sb: #6810-MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Giles 73347,2651 (X) Oh you bet... we're gonna be at the CoCoFest. So far it sounds like the entire gang will be there. Should be a good show (too short, as usual!) #: 6824 S15/Hot Topics 20-Sep-90 21:21:34 Sb: #6810-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Giles 73347,2651 (X) Giles, You gonna be at the fest? If so....I'm not speaking there (Sunday)!!! (Only kidding!) Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 6845 S15/Hot Topics 21-Sep-90 15:45:23 Sb: #6824-#MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) Yup! (At least really gonna TRY!) Iz about time I saw for mySELF if u're REALLY as ugly as they SAY, Danno! Hehehe Giles There is 1 Reply. #: 6854 S15/Hot Topics 21-Sep-90 20:44:28 Sb: #6845-MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Giles 73347,2651 Giles, Yo mama! Dan #: 6775 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 02:18:03 Sb: #CD-I News Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all Two news items of note on CD-I, which uses the OS-9 operating system: "Photo CD" is a new photographic system -- jointly developed between Kodak and Philips -- that can scan 35 mm images and write them on compact discs for later playback by consumers on Compact Disc-Interactive (CD-I) players, CD ROM-XA systems, and dedicated Photo CD players. Gaston Bastiaens, director of Philip's interactive media systems group, said, "Photo CD will extend the application possibilities of the CD-I system." CD-I was also explained as a key stimulus for the development of the new Motorola 68340 "data movement engine", which will be used to enhance future CD-I systems. The 68340 is an integrated device based around a 68020 cpu core. On-chip peripherals include 32-bit dual channel DMA, timers, serial. CD-I players turn televisions and stereos into interactive entertainment and information centers, combining high quality sound, text, still image and full motion video, computer graphics and data on CDs. Developed by Sony/Phillips, CD-I will be the world standard for interactive CD applications. Consumer players will be introduced in the United States and Japan in 1991, Europe in 1992. Many publishers are already preparing titles for the consumer launch. There are 2 Replies. #: 6777 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 08:49:37 Sb: #6775-#CD-I News Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, This would be of great interest to others (besides myself) on the Photography Forum (go photoforum). Could you either post it there or tell me how I could do it (I do not have easy access to a machine that allows up/downloading)? Thanks, Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 6782 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 14:41:11 Sb: #6777-#CD-I News Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 (X) Mark - I see they're already talking about Photo CD there... see msgs 31592 and onward. Thanks for the tip tho, I can always add some info about the CD-I aspect of all this. There is 1 Reply. #: 6783 S15/Hot Topics 19-Sep-90 15:03:08 Sb: #6782-CD-I News Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Oops - thanks. I had de-selected section 2 (News & Issues) because I got tired of tirades about the Mapplethorpe exhibit and censorship. Well, it just goes to show you .... . Mark #: 6849 S15/Hot Topics 21-Sep-90 16:47:01 Sb: #6775-CD-I News Fm: Joseph Cheek 76264,142 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin--you say that "CD-I will be the world standard for interactive CD applications". Whatever happened to competitors, like DVI? #: 7032 S15/Hot Topics 27-Sep-90 19:15:04 Sb: #MM/1 Software Fm: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, What software beyond Professional OSK will come with the MM/1? Thanks, -J There is 1 Reply. #: 7037 S15/Hot Topics 27-Sep-90 19:44:33 Sb: #7032-#MM/1 Software Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 (X) Jay, You may wish to browse the transcript of the MM/1 conference Paul held a while back. He mentions several software item that will be available. Tho .. enough time has past that may be Paul should update us ....Paul??? Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 7187 S15/Hot Topics 04-Oct-90 22:33:47 Sb: #7037-#MM/1 Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve, We've got a few things planned to announce at the Fest. Plus, there are a few things we can't announce yet. One of them is a multimedia thingie from the Amiga world. Some things I CAN mention: an IFF viewer for OS-9, using the same IFF specs used in CD-I as far as possible on the MM/1. Also, an LHARC dearcing program that lets you get Amiga sound and graphics files. Lessee, now we have Tetris on the MM/1, as well as Zack Sessions' Solitaire game, and the maze program here. There's some other stuff, too, but I gotta run! Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 7188 S15/Hot Topics 04-Oct-90 22:42:40 Sb: #7187-MM/1 Software Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Sounds like things are humming along! Keep us posted. Stevev #: 7222 S15/Hot Topics 06-Oct-90 00:33:46 Sb: #7187-#MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Hi Paul... I just called and ordered my MM/1 Extended System. This system includes the second board, right? How much memory will fit on this board? How much would it cost me to bump the machine up to 3 meg? Any XT type keyboard is ok? Will any PC style mouse work (Logitech, Microsoft, etc)? How is FCC certification coming? When I phoned, the operator told me a couple days more. Is this true, or are we looking at a few months more? After you get FCC approval, you'll start producing and shipping - how many people are in line ahead of me? Enough questions for ya yet? There are 2 Replies. #: 7228 S15/Hot Topics 06-Oct-90 11:08:15 Sb: #7222-#MM/1 Software Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Glen; If I'm reading things right, you can have 1Meg, 3Meg or 9Meg depending on whether you use 1 or 4M SIMMS. One bank of memory on the MB, and 2 SIMM slots on the I/O board would give you the above combos of memory. For reference, the local electronics supermart here (Fry's) has these latest prices : 1Meg x 8 80ns SIMMS - $49 4Meg x 8 80ns SIMMS - $295 (and dropping) 101 key Atex keyboard - $49 Logictech serial mouse - $79 Serial mice and trackballs from $49 to $129, depending. ...Jim There is 1 Reply. #: 7230 S15/Hot Topics 06-Oct-90 22:30:49 Sb: #7228-MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Hi Jim... Thanks for the info. Mem prices aren't as bad as they were for a while there. #: 7314 S15/Hot Topics 12-Oct-90 23:27:16 Sb: #7222-#MM/1 Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Glen, Second board is included, memory upgrade around $160, tested and guaranteed. XT keyboards OK. PC Style powered serial mouse needed, ala Logitech. Some Microsoft mice may not work, I understand. FCC is fine. the LABportion is only a few days more, and then there is the INTERMINABLE paperwork delay (read, three weeks). We've got enough to do in the meantime. We have many people ahead of you. I fully expect to be busy until February with our orders, although people who have put down deposits get first dibs. Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 7326 S15/Hot Topics 13-Oct-90 09:02:55 Sb: #7314-#MM/1 Software Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Can you give us a comprehensive software list with some names on it? I'd really appreciate it! Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 7422 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 17:25:37 Sb: #7326-#MM/1 Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, SOON! The software list will come out right before the software comes out. Strategic planning and avoidance of Murphyism are the reasons for the delay in releasing info. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7443 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 20:43:40 Sb: #7422-#MM/1 Software Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Grrrr. I understand, but patience isn't one of my better traits! BTW, there is an ongoing discussion on UUCP news about the MM/1 on the Amiga newsgroup. Somebody posted that a friend had shown them some specs on a new computer and he described the MM/1. Another guy proceeded to tell him he was 'stupid' because the 68070 doesn't exist, etc. Other users then corrected HIM and gave some info on the MM/1. It's a very interesting conversation. Too bad my school's computer won't allow posting, or I'd inform them all! Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 7481 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 21:45:56 Sb: #7443-MM/1 Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, Somebody at Motorola told me that someone else at Motorola was upset at Signetics' choice of 68070 as the name of their chip! As you have seen, it causes some confusion. If you would like some extra brochures, just give a call at 202 232 4246! Paul #: 7369 S15/Hot Topics 14-Oct-90 23:47:39 Sb: #7314-#MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Hi Paul... Thanks for the reply. I guess I should phone and make sure the extra memory is installed before my system is shipped? By the sounds of it, there's no rush, though. Could be months before I see one, I guess? There is 1 Reply. #: 7424 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 17:30:26 Sb: #7369-#MM/1 Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Not months! I'd say about a month before we really slosh through the backorders. We should be shipping withing a couple of weeks of FCC approval. Actually, I think that the memory upgrade is something you COULD do yourself. If WE do it, you'll get a good price and a warranty on the part. Just let us know through a letter to IMS, 238 Catawba, Davidson NC 28036. Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7550 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 01:06:36 Sb: #7424-MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Hi Paul... A month! Sounds much better. I'll call and make sure the mem is installed before shipping. I don't have much spare time to chase around looking for memory prices. Got a company to run, ya know... #: 7144 S15/Hot Topics 03-Oct-90 07:21:54 Sb: MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Thx, Paul! Prolly c u at th Fest! (grin) Giles #: 7145 S15/Hot Topics 03-Oct-90 07:25:08 Sb: MM/1 Serv. Manual Fm: Giles 73347,2651 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Maybe I aughta badger Kev for a copy of HIS version! (grin) Giles #: 7273 S15/Hot Topics 10-Oct-90 13:58:03 Sb: #CoCoFest Report Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: all The CoCoFest in Atlanta turned out to be a success! People said the turnout seemed as large as the last Chicago fest, which isn't bad at all considering the relative lack of advertising done. The number of regulars from far away places was incredible... lots of New Yorkers, Floridians, and even some guys from Holland! The hotel was totally filled up, altho some of that was from the cheerleader competition (now are you sorry you didn't go? hehe). The producers did a bang-up job... it looked exactly like a RainbowFest, altho I wish they'd left out the loud public announcement system (which is the terror of all fests ;-). Lots of booths, and I wish I'd kept the handout with the names of all the companies there (someone got a list?). Burke&Burke showed up from Washington state, in fact! It was definitely an OS9 oriented show, or seemed that way to me and others. The hardware highlight of course was the showing of the new machines: the MM/1, PT68K4, and TC70/TC9. They only had one large room set aside for seminars, which meant they sometimes had to be cut short. I watched bits of the Future-of-Rainbow one, and Bjork's CoCo-History. My own BS session lasted from 6pm-9pm Saturday night (failed to set a record by 1/2 hour :-)... I must congratulate all 400 people who stuck around since I forgot to give breaks once in a while! I think we'd have kept on all night long if we hadn't all been without sleep for days. I'd like to hear others' impressions of the fest... as always, my view was somewhat limited. But I thought it was one of the best. There are 2 Replies. #: 7277 S15/Hot Topics 10-Oct-90 20:57:00 Sb: #7273-#CoCoFest Report Fm: Dan Robins 73007,2473 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, I've got one of the bulletins at the office, I'll post the list of vendors tommorow if someone doesn't beat me to it. Dan There is 1 Reply. #: 7283 S15/Hot Topics 11-Oct-90 00:43:41 Sb: #7277-CoCoFest Report Fm: Michael P. Brown 76220,1014 To: Dan Robins 73007,2473 (X) I too have the list, but since Dan has already volunteered... I really had a great time at the fest - it's great to be able to put a face and a voice to these messages now. Since this was my first fest, I have no way to compare to RainbowFests, but it was all I had hoped it would be (and the room service wasn't bad, either.) I sure hope I can make it to another one sometime. Charles West (ignore the name above... it's my partner's account) #: 7337 S15/Hot Topics 13-Oct-90 14:21:27 Sb: #7273-#CoCoFest Report Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin...VERY glad you could join us at Atlanta! Wish I'd had a moment to actually meet you, but as you can imagine, I had my hands rather full most of the time ;-). I just wanted to shed a little light on some of your observations about the 'fest. The rationale behind having only ONE seminar room was the avoidance of a dilemma facing attendees of the Falsoft shows...having a hard choice between two seminars one is interested in, that happen to be running concurrently (or overlapping in part). By and large, the feedback I have recieved from the attendees bore this out to be a popular approach. I DO agree that some of the seminars were forced to run a bit short due to these constraints, and next year we will schedule one or two less seminars in order to relax the scheduling a bit. At least we knew well enough to avoid putting YOU in the position of having to run short ...and inciting a riot in the process! We too were relatively pleased with the turnout, although we did do a bit more in the way of advertising than you apparently realize. We ran 3 months of ads in Rbow, incessant promo on BBS', got a bit of press in the OSK'er, and did a 1500-piece direct mailing to known CoCo and/or OS-9 users in the Eastern U.S. No big deal at this juncture, but I guess I just want to let vendors know that we DID do everything possible to ensure maximum attendance, given the As far as the "loud" P.A....well, what can I say! ;-) I was not aware that the volume was excessive, but wish that you (or someone) would have mentioned it if it were. At least we didn't use it to announce picture sessions with Goober the CoCo Cracker . Ol' Goob was busy enough on his own, anyway. If you would like a showguide or three, I do have some left. If you e-mail me your address, I'd be happy to mail you one. Again, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad that you (and all) had a good time, and hope to meet you there next year! Thanks for joining us! Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products There is 1 Reply. #: 7343 S15/Hot Topics 13-Oct-90 15:13:45 Sb: #7337-#CoCoFest Report Fm: Ches Looney 73016,1336 To: Dave Myers 71750,210 (X) Dave, lemme jump in here to say Thanks for arranging the Atlanta Fest. I had a good time and enjoyed the yearly renewal of contacts in person. Best Regards, Ches. There is 1 Reply. #: 7399 S15/Hot Topics 15-Oct-90 23:09:27 Sb: #7343-CoCoFest Report Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Ches Looney 73016,1336 (X) Thanks, Ches! VERY glad you could join us! A pleasure seeing you, as always. Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products #: 7316 S15/Hot Topics 12-Oct-90 23:30:04 Sb: #Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: all All, Any reactions on the Fest in Atlanta that y ou would like to pass on to me and the folks at IMS? We want to know what you thought, and how we might b e able to serve you a little better. BTW congrats to DINAH PHILLIPS, who won a Personal MM/1, and called recently to upgrade it to an Extended! Paul There are 3 Replies. #: 7322 S15/Hot Topics 13-Oct-90 05:18:45 Sb: #7316-#Fest Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Well...let's see. I was highly impressed. (Were I less inhibited, I'd probably jump up and down and say "I want my MM/1," but I know you're working as hard as possible to get them out the door, so that really wouldn't help anyway. :-) There is 1 Reply. #: 7420 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 17:20:39 Sb: #7322-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Actually, the jumping up and down greatly excites our sales director, Mary Kay. She likes positive vibes from our burgeoning MM/1 constituency! Paual Oops, Paul. #: 7324 S15/Hot Topics 13-Oct-90 08:08:59 Sb: #7316-#Fest Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Hi Paul, I didn't make it to the Atlanta 'Fest, but I have already seen a lot of messages from those who did (here and on D****I and some local boards via various national relays. The MM1 seems to have made a big hit. Lots of comments on it (and FHL's machines). Also more messages about OS9 in general. BTW - the money that I DIDN'T spend on airline tickets, Atlanta Hotel room, etc, will buy memory and a hard disk for MY MM/1. (Soon, I hope). Best, JohnW There are 2 Replies. #: 7421 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 17:24:36 Sb: #7324-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X) Interesting - FHL had some Hazelwood KBus cards on display, but no TC9 or TC70. Delmar, a reseller for Peripheral Technologies, had systems there. I have heard that OS-9 on them can be flaky (hopefully they are more stable than the one I have used!) but those VGA graphics looked great. About the same res as the MM/1, but the contrast was nicer than on our CM-8/Multisync. Still, VGA is NOT NTSC compatible, so you'd be out of luck with a PTif you wanted to save your stuff on tape. It looks like PT and IMS will be doing some business together, too. They seem eager and competent and pleased to be working with us to provide some support to our growing OSK community! Exciting times! Paul There are 2 Replies. #: 7465 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 15:53:56 Sb: #7421-#Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul: I was appalled to read your message to John Wainwright (message #7421). It appears that your marketing strategy is based on Madison Ave's first tenet, "appeal to the 85 per cent". (From Thomas A Edison's, "Five per cent of the people think, ten per cent of the people think they think and eighty-five per cent of the people would rather die than think".) Statements like 'I have heard' and 'flaky' say nothing concrete but can certainly have some very negative connotations. If there are problems with your PT, what are they? I understand you purchased your PT second hand. The original buyer put it together from a kit. Also, if we have traced things properly, he received version 1.4 of OS9/68000 - a version of OS9/68000 replete with problems regardless of the machine on which it was installed. We are currently shipping version 2.3 and will ship version 2.4 when it is released. What have you heard about the SYSTEM IV? If you really want to know about the SYSTEM IV, why don't you buy one? We will certainly be happy to sell you one and we can deliver *immediately*. You used the term 'CM-8/Multisync'. I was not aware that the CM-8 is a multisync monitor. The CM-8, as provided by Tandy, is a 300 x 225 monitor. Tricks can be played to make it look like as good as a higher resolution monitor, but it can still only display low resolution graphics. Or, are you refering to the Magnavox monitor? While better than the Tandy CM-8, it still does not approach accepted VGA standards. How many people want an NTSC output? Yes, you can video tape your output. Try reading a 80 character screen on a TV. That's why people went to monitors in the first place and if 80 character is hard to read, how good can the graphics be? The 68070/66470 chip set does support NTSC capability but the trade-off is a compromise of the graphics capability so it is not as good as VGA provides. Since the SYSTEM IV allows the use of existing PC/XT boards, NTSC is available to the user (but we do not currently support NTSC boards). (continued next message) There is 1 Reply. #: 7466 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 15:54:47 Sb: #7465-#Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (continued from previous message) The entire community is still waiting to hear what is in the $600.00 worth of 'free software' you are bundling with your machine. I haven't heard much about that lately, did you drop that offer? Also, about a month ago, you refered to a 'K4 killer'. What is it - where is it? If our machine is as poor as you intimate, you have nothing to worry about - word will get around very quickly. You have engaged in a great deal of competitor bashing - first against Frank Hogg Laboratories and now against DELMAR. Actually, I guess we should be flattered. It is apparant that you are worried that our machines may be superior to the MM/1 and want to instill, in the 85%, fears about your competition. If you have facts, then please state them. You are not yet in a position to make comparisons of the various machines since your machine is *NOT* in production nor have you delivered any production units (unless you count units built by hand on a 'kitchen table'). Of course, you *HAVE* delivered a lot of hype! Therefore, you do not know what problems will occur with the MM/1 in the field. Neither DELMAR nor PERIPHERAL TECHNOLOGY will make claims they cannot support. Nor do we make advertising claims about what we might do in the future. There is a market place for all of the entries. Engaging in competitor bashing will serve only to destroy the market place and not serve anyone's interests. Go ahead, make your claims - I sincerely hope the MM/1 will live up to them, but if it doesn't, be prepared for your competitors to talk about your failures. If you find a problem with a competitor's product then talk about the problem - but otherwise, ".... people who live in glass houses ....". (continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7467 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 15:56:24 Sb: #7466-#Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (continued from previous message) I have a great deal of respect for your technical people and want to continue working with them. I must empathise with them if they have to back up your claims. However, the ethical standards you are following are causing us to review the desirability of our continuing any association with you or IMS. I can only assume that your close proximaty to the politicians in Washington has influenced your standards. Our mutual interests center around providing our customers with real software (not vaporware). May we expect some professionalism from you and your company in the future? Ed Gresick DELMAR CO There is 1 Reply. #: 7486 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 22:14:00 Sb: #7467-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, Although I will respond to your message to me in the order in which the topics appeared in your note, I want to make several global points. Never have I said anything untrue in our marketing "hype". Second, I have always been a gentleman to you and to all the people that have worked on the MM/1 project. All you have to do is ask any of them. Third, I apologize if you think I slammed the PT technology at all. I >DO< have a PT and it is pretty fast. It needs some driver work in a serious way, though. A friend of mine runs OSK on his own PT and his hard drive just crashed. Now, just because there are problems with some machines, does not mean that the PT line is at fault, and I WAS NOT USING COMPUSERVE AS A FORUM TO SLAM YOUR PRODUCT. Period. Now, I would like to respond to your note, and if I run on, I will do as you did, and make the note from Paul Ward to Paul Ward, just to help you get the stuff in bite-size chunks. OK, you are right. I have not heard a thing about the system iv. I have a K2, and it is an older design, as you know, probably with older drivers. (Of course, please don't go slamming the MM/1 because it is new. After all, if I cannot comment on your machine without having worked with it, you cannot do the same.) Also, I DO NOT think that 85% of the people do not think. You and I have talked enough for you to know that I am a respectful person. Especially of the customers. This is why IMS is doing what it is doing, and I will GLADLY discuss on the phone with you why it is ultimately an act of respect to our customers that 1) we are doing things with OSK that have never been done before, in terms of ease of use and innovative applications in the home and business, 2) we are offering a highly integrated and affordable system, 3) that I have traveled to Texas and Silicon Valley to successfully get companies to port stuff to the MM/1. When I said CM8/Multisync, I meant CM-8 or Multisync. That was a typgraphic problem, sorry if it was deceptive. About reading 80 columns on a TV -- I would be glad to send you a whole stack of articles on a hot new There is 1 Reply. #: 7487 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 22:17:47 Sb: #7486-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) subject called Corporate Desktop Video -- in general, desktop video will become a nice new hobby for business and pleasure alike. IMS is creating multimedia authoring tools that integrate nicely with the 66470 and our stereo sound/MIDI that should make putting natural images, voice, and music on video tape a snap. So your comment about 80 column text on a TV is exactly true, but not relevant to what I was getting at. OTOH, I recall mentioning the NTSC thing as a way of distinguishing PT's VGA output with ours -- so I was doing some marketing. VGA looks great, Ed! And personally, if I caould get VGA quality with an NTSC compatible output for cheap -- I'd do it! However, the 66470 gives results similar to VGA and still makes desktop video viable. There is 1 Reply. #: 7491 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 22:26:18 Sb: #7487-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) OK, the software that we include has been in our brochures and on Compuserve for months, Ed. Here is a list. Included at no extra charge with the MM/1: OSK 2.3 (2.4 when it stabilizes), but also with the prerelease version of variable sector size RBF. C compiler, Basic, Assembler, two telecom packages, uucp, Network File Manager, PC File Manager, Sequential Block File Manager, graphics editor, text editor, print spooling, network mail system, full utilities set, and demos. Also included will be discount coupons on some software by members in our Interactive Media Systems Developer's Assocation. I actually refrained from competition bashing for months, Ed, until I got sick and tired of being bashed myself. It is VERY frustrating keeping absolutely silent while competitors lie and make faces. However, please note that NOTHING I said about your machine was actually bad. I even said that VGA looks great in that original note! And also note that when I mentioned the flaky OSK on the K2, it was based on first hand experience with a productionboard. That doesn't mean that the K4 will be flaky at all. Yes, I have delivered hype. However, hype with performance. Signetics was significantly impressed that they asked IMS to send our system to California for an applications engineers conference in Silicon Valley. And we will be offering QuickBasic. And we will be offering a GUI -- and so on. Not everything happens at once, and if we kept quiet about what we were working on, IMS and all the rest would risk losing a market that is very unique. There is 1 Reply. #: 7494 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 22:33:29 Sb: #7491-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Ed, and while we're on it, I want to mention that the machines at the Fest were production designs. If we were to have a large stock of production mass manufactured machines sitting in a warehouse while FCC approval is still in the works, we would by tying up capital. That is bad business, as you know. I hope that clarifies that! BTW, we at IMS TRULY believe that the OSK market can and will take off. That is why we are getting our systems FCC approved, a tedious process that starts int he design phase with ferite beads on the connectors, appropriate case choice, and so on. This is not Hype, Ed. FCC approval means business. The hand assembled production design machines have been in the field for two months with no problems at all. This is why we feel great about our warranty. I am truly sorry that you think that I am not acting professionally. I think maybe I overstepped my bounds by providing some background experience with an older K2 to someone on the forum. If that offended you or your company, I am deeply sorry. Once again, I thnk everyone who knows me would disagree with your assessment that DC politics have affected me negatively. I and the other folks here are truly trying to do good honest work. If you have specific suggestions about how I can do this work better, please let me know! What is vaporware, by the way, of the things IMS has promised? Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7512 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 08:23:04 Sb: #7494-#Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, Re your PT - have you contacted Peripheral Technology regarding upgrades to your system? PT has made available to its customers upgrades to the software they provided including the Operating System. Some are provided at no charge and the rest at a nominal charge. DELMAR will continue this practice for purchasers of the SYSTEM IV. Regarding my ignorance of what you are offering. On at least two occassions, in private conversations, you promised to put me on your mailing list to receive your newsletter. I have yet to receive the first one. I hope you will refrain from comments about the SYSTEM IV in the future unless you have *FACTS* including details. Please note that neither I as an individual nor DELMAR CO has ever referred to the MM/1 in public forumn prior to my message to you. Nor have we made any reference to the MM/1 in our announcements or advertising. I do not intend to in the future unless compelled to. And, I don't really remember anyone 'bashing' the MM/1 although many members of this forumn have asked you questions about your machine. Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 7563 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 18:06:32 Sb: #7512-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, Per our excellent and production conversation on the phone today, I want to extend my unconditional apology to you, DELMAR, Fred Brown, the the and the SIGops of CompuServe for allowing a comment to come from my keyboard that 1) Made a statement about the problems experienced with K2 systems from PT without accompanyint CONSTRUCTIVE information 2) Hinted at marketing hype (although intermixed with some facts), even though I have long believed, as you do too, that the Forum is no place for marketing hype, and certainly no place for the President of one company to create uncertainty about the products of another. I am sorry I goofed. I have tried to keep the high road in the past, as many of our friends know well. They, and I, are surprises at what I did. So, in the future, I'll be more careful, and aware that the role that I play here, and that IMS plays, should be an example of gentlemanliness. And, I must say, Ed, it is a pleasure to have spoken with you, cleared this up, and made it possible for us to continue what has been a longstanding relationship based on openness and respect. Best regards, Paul Ward President Interactive Media Systems, Reformed Talk to you soon! There is 1 Reply. #: 7589 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 04:24:43 Sb: #7563-Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, Apology accepted. Now, go back to work and make some MM/1s - you have customers waiting. Ed #: 7478 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 20:53:38 Sb: #7421-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul Don't you think it's time to cut this crap and stop the lies about FHL, the Tomcat and what we are doing. You know full well that we had both a TC9 display prototype and a TC70 working prototype at the show! Your own Kevin Pease was at our booth and spent quite a bit of time examining both of them. Why do you insist on telling these kind of lies! This is not the first time you have made off the wall statements that are not true. I know that you are not technical nor a programmer and cannot be expected to be correct in matters of that kind but this does not explain your incessant use of lies when talking about FHL. For someone who has yet to deliver even one product you seem to spend a lot of time putting down those of us who have been in business and delivering product for years. Before you make any more negative comments about what I am doing I suggest you put up or shut up! Better yet... Put up AND shut up! This coming December I will start my FIFTHEENTH year in business! You're new and only in business a few months. I don't think the guys who have been around appreciate your approach to doing business. If they see you lying about your competition they will think you are lying about your own product. Seeing that you have yet to deliver on any of your many claims this could be a disaster for you. Maybe this tactic will work for awhile, but not for long. Who was it that said you could fool some of the people some of the time etc etc. Clean up your act and tell the truth or say nothing. If your MM1 is any good it will speak for itself and this kind of BS will not be necessary. Best of luck Frank Hogg There is 1 Reply. #: 7496 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 22:44:23 Sb: #7478-#Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, First, I want to apologize to you deeply. I was told by Kevin Pease and two others that you had neither machine at the Fest and working. I was told that, instead, you had your KBus systems there, and as we both know, KBus systems have been around for a while and are in good use. I personally did not have a chance to stop by your booth and examine it, and I should in fact have kept my mouth shut. However, please recall that I did have several independent sources say that you had neither system at the Fest, and it was an assumption that was further reinforced by your comment at our seminar that you were unprepared for the Fest. Once again, I am deeply sorry for the error. If anyone who was at the Fest would kindly upload a report on the TC9 and TC70 that they saw -- running or not -- at the Fest, I would read it with great interest. In the future, I know I can trust you to spot these errors on my part, and I for one am delighted that so many people got to see your machines at the Fest -- assuming of course they were there, and I have no way of knowing either way since I did not get over there. I do wonder how the other folks at the Fest were so uniformly mistaken? Can you clear this up? As for vaporware, please note that we had several demos, games, and windowed IFF and GIF viewers at our booth, thanks to the hard work of several developers, who have been using MM/1s since April. If I used the term vaporware with regard to your system (I don't think I did), I am sorry -- I certainly understand that your TC70 and TC9 are coming along, and will be ready sometime soon. I don't call works in progress vaporware. Nor should you -- we have many works in progress at IMS, including home networking, WYSIWYG library support, graphics and animation, and so on. When they are ready, they are ready! They would only be vaporware if we announced them as shipping and we were lying! Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7506 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 00:42:55 Sb: #7496-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, I accept your apology. Now if you would just not mention FHL, the Tomcats or make any comments about same you would make me very happy. I in turn will not say anything about your MM1. Let's let them stand on their own and let the guys who use tham talk. I will upload complete information on both the TC9 and TC70 when I am ready to do so. BTW what 'other folks' are you talking about, name them please. I cannot clear up what your comment refers to unless I know what you are talking about. As far as people at the fest seeing the TC9 and TC70, I am sure not all of them did, after all I was mobbed in the booth the whole show and could not have been able to show everyone there. You, Ed I, and everyone else would be better served if we spent our time getting these machines out instead wasting time here with this BS. Please be cautious in the future to either get your facts straight or say nothing, I don't want to have to waste another evening like this. Enough said! Good luck with the MM1. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7580 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 23:25:34 Sb: #7506-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, And good luck with your TC9 and TC70! I agree, this has truly been a waste of time and energy! Well, I guess it goes to show that even a courteous person like myself can be discourteous -- advertently, as I did with Ed, or inadvertently, as I did with you -- on occasion. As I said, sorry about that. I am pleased to be picking up and moving on, as you are! Paul #: 7477 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 20:53:01 Sb: #7324-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X) Dear John In Paul Wards message #7421 to you he made statements about FHL that were lies. We had both a display TC9 and a working prototype of the TC70 at the Atlanta show. Kevin Pease, an employee of IMS and designer of the MM1 spent quite a bit of time examining both of them. Kevin even ran his benchmark on one of the running production Tomcats at the booth where it ran about 50% faster than the MM1. This is not the first time Mr Ward has made false statements about us here on CIS and other places. I don't know why he lies about us but it does show his colors. Therefore I would suggest you take that into consideration whenever he makes any claims about us, other companies, or even his own products. Remember that IMS has only been in business for a few months and so far they have not delivered anything. On the other hand their hype about their product and negative comments about us and others has been prolific. Let the buyer beware, as the saying goes. There has always been strong competition in the OS9 world. There was even a time when it was almost this raw. I would prefer to keep things on a higher level and have been quiet till now. But outright lies have to be addressed, I wish I did not have to waste my time and yours with this kind of crap. Perhaps, as a buyer of an MM1 you could suggest to Paul that this is not in his best interest nor in the best interest of the OS9 community. Best of luck to you. Frank Hogg There is 1 Reply. #: 7499 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 23:13:55 Sb: #7477-#Fest Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, As I have already said to both Ed and Paul in private mail, and now I am saying not only to you, but to all three of you in the public forum: You are hurting the OS9 community with all of this public bickering over differences in each of your systems. If each of you would stick to specifics of EXACTLY what your OWN systems do and do not support, and REFRAIN from mentioning any of the other systems, then all of us would benefit. All three of you are starting to sound like spoiled children, instead of the intelligent businessmen that I know you are. Bill There are 4 Replies. #: 7505 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 00:32:31 Sb: #7499-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Hear Hear I agree with you on all counts and I wish that the circumstances did not occur that brought this on. However now that it has come to a head I for one hope that it is over. I do not expect to have to do this again unless forced to answer another untruth. I would prefer that the facts about what I am doing came from me rather that translated untruths from others. Perhaps now that will happen. Your message will not fall on deaf ears I am sure. BTW shouldn't this public message have been sent to Paul. Frank There are 2 Replies. #: 7510 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 07:57:43 Sb: #7505-Fest Fm: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, It was to all three of you, look at the first sentence in the message. I was NOT picking on you, and I'm NOT taking sides, your message was the one I just happened to reply to. Bill #: 7576 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 23:01:16 Sb: #7505-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) No need to send it to me, Frank! I responded! And I am glad, too, that we got a reminder to keep the forum clean and gentlemanly. I truly meant it when I said that I did not deliberately screw up -- but what happened, happened. Next time, I'll learn not to trust the folks who give me reports if I can't verify with my own eyes, and EVEN THEN -- as President of IMS -- I must needs keep my mouth shut, even if I am tempted to disclose something I feel strongly about. I think Ed and I patched things up nicely, BTW. It's good to be on gentlemanly terms with him. He's a great guy. Best regards, Paul #: 7507 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 02:34:11 Sb: #7499-#Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) I don't think it hurts OS9 itself... just shows the (nervous :-) fervor of the various vendors. I agree, they should mention only their own system. That said, I'm now going to add my own public exasperation at all those very poorly thought out messages: To Paul (#7421) - You sure wrote a dumb message, eh? If you meant the PT68K2, you should've said so. Mentioning DELMAR in the same breath was wrong, too. And never say "but no TC9 or TC70" or "the contrast was nicer" etc... as a machine competitor you're obliged to add "I personally didn't see XXX" or "to me the contrast seemed nicer", etc, if you must say anything. To Ed (#7465-67) - A little overkill on the reply, wasn't there? Nothing like taking one sentence and turning it into a bash fest. You could, and should, have resolved this by phone or email. Also, your message noted that one OSK version was indeed flaky... which amusingly backed up his message. Lots more, but all in all you went way overboard. Oh, and "CM-8/multisync" was obvious to _everyone_ else as shorthand for "CM-8 or multisync". To Frank (#7477-78,7506) - CIS forum regulars try to assume that an honest or simple mistake was made, instead of calling someone a liar. Worse, vague accusations without backup facts is a no-no. Besides making YOU look bad, it also opens your messages for similar inspection: I saw no working TC70 prototype at the show, either. A supposedly working card which was never hooked up, yes. And sure, Pease ran his program on a 16Mhz 68000 K-Bus card; your message implied it was done on a TC70. Am I also a "liar"? Or just honestly mistaken? To all 3 - There is no need to point out that a competitor has dumped on your machine... readers are smart people. Please try to work out things behind the scenes, then post corrections in public. Even tho I work for all of you, I will not hesitate to singe the next one to step out of bounds. And by golly, my flames are hot and reach far ;-). Thanks! - kev There are 3 Replies. #: 7514 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 09:05:49 Sb: #7507-Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev and everyone, I reread my message about Kevin Pease and it said, "Kevin even ran his benchmark on one of the running production Tomcats at the booth where it ran about 50% faster than the MM1" I think the wording "running production Tomcats" made a clear distinction between it and the wording "working prototype of the TC70". I don't think this implied that they were the same and would be quite surprised if anyone could think that. I always try to be very clear about the comments I make so that there is never any misunderstanding. Perhaps this was a poor example of what you were trying to illustrate, that honest mistakes can be made. While I agree that this is the case most of the time, Paul's statement was the last in a line of things that taken together have not been taken for 'honest mistakes'. I don't think it would be a good idea to list them here so I won't, but I will in private to you or Paul if you would like, just give me a call. I certainly agree that this type of thing should be kept behind the scenes. Probably all of you feel that way. Remember that it was HIS message here in public that finally triggered the response it did. I haven't been on this forum for some time and although I may have made comments in the past, I do not believe they were as prolific nor as pointed as Paul's. It is annoying to have to be put in a position to either stay quiet and let these kind of things go or have to defend yourself against unfair attacks. I lose either way. Sometimes I think I would be better off ignoring all of the forums and just concentrate on work, it sure would be less aggravating. (continued) #: 7515 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 09:06:44 Sb: #7507-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) (continued from last message) However perhaps this will do some good and cause Paul to think twice before making comments without thinking about how his wording will affect others. He is new to this while the rest of us have been doing this for many years and know how the game is played. If something positive comes out of this then it will have been worth it. I hope that this ends what has been an annoying waste of time for me. I do not enjoy this and hope that this message ends it. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7548 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 00:36:25 Sb: #7515-#Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank - please allow me to be plainer: As you indicated, unclear messages can appear to be intentionally misleading. So can wrong technical information, or even personal opinions. There's no debate there. It especially happens over electronic media. The problem from my forum standpoint with your and Ed's messages was that you both took a negative comment about HARDWARE, and replied not with clear corrective facts, but with PERSONAL attacks and innuendos... and I can't emphasize how petty, silly, mean and just plain off-the-point that was! I should know. I did it myself once many years back... and still regret it. In other words, if y'all want to beat up on each others' machines or opinions, I don't think most people would really mind. But there's a heckuva lot of difference between going into someone's store and saying "your merchandise doesn't work", versus telling the store owner that "you're a SOB". And worse, continuing in that vein more than once. As a businessman you should appreciate this difference a lot. thx and pax - kev There are 3 Replies. #: 7570 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 20:26:40 Sb: #7548-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, You state that I am making personal attacks that are "petty, silly, mean and off-the-point." Isn't that the same as you saying that >I< am petty, silly, and mean. Isn't THAT a personal attack from you about ME? (heh heh) Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7587 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 02:59:32 Sb: #7570-Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank - Nah, it's the same as saying that when _I_ engaged in personal attacks on this forum years ago, it was "petty, silly, mean, and off-the-point". Personal attacks didn't solve anything then... didn't help now. And that's partly the reason that tens of forums (here and elsewhere) over the past few years know this very well: a personal attack on _anyone_, friend or foe of mine, always results in me jumping on the attacker(s). Just figure it as Karma for my _own_ past mistakes . - kev #: 7571 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 20:27:13 Sb: #7548-Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, You state that "you both took a negative comment about HARDWARE, and replied not with clear corrective facts, but with PERSONAL attacks and innuendos..." WRONG! His comments about me were not about hardware but his claim that I did not have two products at Atlanta when in fact I DID have them there! He said something incorrect about ME and MY COMPANY, not the hardware. His subtle inference by this statement was that because they were not there then maybe something was wrong... Why else would he even mention it? Could his intent have been to get that information out in a public forum where it might start a rumor or do some other damage? Why would he even mention it if this were not the case??? He also did the same thing in print when in his 1st newsletter he made another untrue statement that said in effect that FHL showed a computer at the Chicago Rainbowfest 'based on the discontinued GIMI chip'. As you know the GIMI is not discontinued and nobody bases a computer on a graphics chip anyway. Was his intent to discredit the Tomcat and FHL? If he wished to inform his readers then that was a very strange way to describe a competitors product. (continued) #: 7572 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 20:27:50 Sb: #7548-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) (continued from last message) When a lawyer in court makes an incorrect statement the opposing lawyer jumps up and yells OBJECTION! OBJECTION! and the judge decides. The jury hears both sides. The lawyer who objects does not whisper his objection in the ear of the other lawyer. The 1st lawyer (Paul) said it to the jury (the forum) and because of that the 2nd lawyer (Me) had to jump up and yell so the jury (the forum) would know the truth. On this very public forum when one companies President makes a very serious statement that is untrue (a lie) then only a fool would remain silent. I jumped up and yelled LIE! LIE! because if I just quietly said something 'behind the scenes' then the lie would remain for hundreds (thousands?) to see. I regret having to use strong language like the word 'lie' but I felt I had to make sure that everyone who saw Paul's message would be SURE to know it was not true. If I felt it could have been done without that word I would have done so. I have a lot riding on this, it's not just a hobby, I hope you and everyone else understands how I feel. I have now wasted several days on this... I think it should now end, and everyone (you too Kevin) go back to work on their respective projects. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7588 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 02:59:55 Sb: #7572-Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, Yah, it's been a fair waste of time (as we all four have talked about on the phone). A typical electronic media comedy of errors and over-reaction; something we all see now and again.... which is why I had said in my first message, that talking to the person you think has slighted you (or _has_ slighted you) by phone or email FIRST, makes a heckuva lot more sense :-). Certainly easier all around. I think that (as we talked about) a weekly phone call between you three would make even more sense... so that real and imagined grievances are taken care of immediately, instead of festering for months. You also brought up a good point when you said that Paul didn't yet realize that as a company President, he cannot afford to make the same verbal slips that anyone else can . A similar view came up when I had talked to Ed yesterday, as he was (and probably still is) convinced that my bashing on "Ed Gresick" is the same as slamming "DELMAR". Therefore I wonder if it wouldn't be better all around if all three of y'all changed your forum handles to your Company names? Or better yet , get a second CIS number? As we all have said tonight, live and learn! - kev #: 7573 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 20:59:02 Sb: #7507-#Fest Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin (& Paul, & Frank, & Ed) It just looks to me like some of the (previously) good-natured zaps that have been flying since the Chicago 'Fest caught a couple guys in a bad mood (bad day maybe?). When did everybody quit smiling? JohnW There is 1 Reply. #: 7577 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 23:12:19 Sb: #7573-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X) Kevin, Oops, John, I mean (fingers are tired tonight!) I think I started this whole mess by tripping up when making a two comments right after the Fest. One was unfair to Ed, the other was an honest mistake about Frank's statements about the TC9 and TC70 being shown at the Fest. I think it is generally agreed that I, Ed, and Frank, have a responsibility to act to boost our own products and not to detract from the others. The two comments I made -- brief, and unknowingly bad form -- were a sign that I faltered from the usual high ground that I take. After reading the fallout comments that have been made bya all concerned, I have to agree that, myself included, the three of us have let some childishness slip in. So, in the spirit of picking up and moving on, I've put a smile back on my face, made up with Ed Gresick, and in general been trying to smooth things over. I think CompuServe's OS9 Forum gurus, especially Bill and Kevin, are right on the money when they take the position that we have screwed up, and I am grateful for the gentle slap. Paul #: 7511 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 08:21:19 Sb: #7499-#Fest Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Bill (and Kevin and Jim Jones), Yes, I was very upset by Paul Ward's statements. The costs to promote a new product are substantial. And Gentlemen, DELMAR CO is not using customer or invester money - it is coming out of my pocket! And let us not forget who made the statements in the first place. Paul Ward's statements were incomplete in the one case and totally false in the second. Over-reacted? Maybe - but with cause. I've noticed that Paul is still continuing his practice. In his response to me he stated "A friend of mine runs OSK on his own PT and his hard drive just crashed. Now, just because there are problems with some machines, does not mean that the PT line is at fault, ...". No details. Why even mention it if the PT line is not at fault unless the intent is to imply that maybe it is! I realize that you have a vested interest in IMS in one manner or another - but do remember, Paul's statements are bordering on product slander. Kevin - I've noticed that when someone has a problem, you ask for complete details to establish the cause of the problem. Wearing my marketeer hat, I feel completely justified in demanding similar details when a product I'm associated with has problems - what are the details so I can determine what is the cause and if correction is called for, do so. Paul Ward has yet to provide this information. I've had my say so let's go along with Frank's message (#7505) and get back to contructive work. Ed There are 4 Replies. #: 7530 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 17:58:33 Sb: #7511-#Fest Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Just a minor comment here, to avoid any possible misunderstanding...my interests in IMS are two: first, I have a deposit in on an MM/1; second, I wish them well, as I do *anyone* producing a computer that will run some version of OS-9. 'Nuff said--as you said, let's return to constructive work. There is 1 Reply. #: 7531 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 18:00:39 Sb: #7530-Fest Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) Sigh--one last added item. (Sorry, folks.) Any and all opinions I express here are my opinions, and have no necessary correlation with those of any organization. #: 7549 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 00:37:03 Sb: #7511-Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed - please see my msg #7548. BTW, one of the ads at your fest booth contained an insert containing benchmark comparisons with the older MM/1 prototypes. Where those not from your company? Or was your msg 7512 in error? I bring that up to simply point out that every one of us has skeletons and so-called "falsehoods" hanging around. I'm sure that _anyone's_ messages could be picked apart and made out to be deliberate slander: I'm also politely suggesting that correcting Paul's statement could have been done without spending three message slots dredging up every negative statement you could think of... a form of attack which not one of us on the forum could withstand or decently defend ourselves from, once started. I think most people enjoy technical and opinion arguments... it's part of what forums are for. It's the personal parts and veiled hints that people don't like. Just as you said, complete details _are_ needed. If you and Frank care to make up a list of all these previous times you've been bashed, and send it to me email, I'd be happy to read them. thx and pax - kev #: 7551 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 07:40:25 Sb: #7511-Fest Fm: Mark B. Sheffield 76247,1332 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed - Regarding the financing of our respective companies, it does cost a lot to produce and promote a new product. We both know that good business practice dictates financing such ventures with investment (whether by ourselves or other investors) and NOT from customer money other than profits from sales. IMS has NOT used customer deposits to fund our venture, as you suggested. Now let's get on with producing and promoting our nmachines, shall we? -mark #: 7578 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 23:20:55 Sb: #7511-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, It was good to clear the air with you on the phone today. In reference to the people I mentioned, I would like to refer them to you! You were very happy to deal with PT customers who have trouble, and I would like to commend you publicly on your quick response to one K4 customer who had a little trouble. You reported to me today that this K4 customer is just fine now. I certainly did not intend to do the kind of damage that I apparently did, both to you and the OS9 Forum. I think things are settling down nicely, and I am glad that you and I have discussed and agreed upon general principles of conduct that -- sadly -- I let slip! I am not malicious at all, but if that was my effect, I certainly restate my apology. I think everyone will agree that, based on who I am and what I generally stand for, and based on who YOU are and what you generally stand for, it is a good thing that we worked out this topic privately and here. Best wishes on the K4, and with Delmar, who has been creating multiuser point of sale systems successfully for several years. Cheers! Paul #: 7575 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 22:57:22 Sb: #7499-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Bill Dickhaus 70325,523 (X) Bill, Thanks for the reminder. I try to take the "high road", but I did fail for a time. Now I think I can get back to normal! (once-deranged Mad Marketer, regaining dignity) Paul #: 7398 S15/Hot Topics 15-Oct-90 23:06:40 Sb: #7316-Fest Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) I daresay that yours was one of the more popular booths. Waht else can I say so that you might serve us better? Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products #: 7362 S15/Hot Topics 14-Oct-90 16:33:41 Sb: #SYSTEM IV System Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: ALL I want to thank everyone who attended the Atlanta CoCoFest for the response we received to the new SYSTEM IV Computer System. We have no doubts as to the success of our efforts. For those unable to attend the fest, I've posted our full announcement in Library 15. Remember, the SYSTEM IV is available for immediate delivery. Ed Gresick Delmar Co 302-378-2555 There is 1 Reply. #: 7426 S15/Hot Topics 16-Oct-90 17:59:33 Sb: #7362-#SYSTEM IV System Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, Does PT generally put their stuff through FCC approval? Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7464 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 15:52:54 Sb: #7426-#SYSTEM IV System Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Paul, As far as I know, I've asked for a list of the approved machines. BTW, as I understand it, your design has been revised since you submitted your machine for FCC approval. How is re-submitting the new design for approval going to affect your deliveries? Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 7483 S15/Hot Topics 17-Oct-90 21:48:23 Sb: #7464-SYSTEM IV System Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, The design at the FCC is the latest. No changes! Thanks for asking, though. Paul #: 7539 S15/Hot Topics 18-Oct-90 21:32:33 Sb: #Advertising Fm: Greg Morse 72746,3451 To: Paul Ward Paul, by now no doubt you have made several silent vows about what you will or will not say in the future! As an os9 user who likes competion but cringes at in-fighting, i think that FHL's approach of neither competitor mentioning the other is good. FWIW this is also (or has been anyway) IBM's approach. Typically you cannot get their salesmen to comment on another mfgs product. Their approach is always "I'll tell you about IBM's products. If you want to know about brand X then you'd best ask them". Even their benchmark publications typically benchmark IBM machines against each other not against the competition. I gues that they have found it gets them into less trouble in the long run, whether their comments are good, bad, or neutral - they don't make them. As Calvin coolidge might have said - If you don't say nothing they can't take offence. There is 1 Reply. #: 7584 S15/Hot Topics 19-Oct-90 23:45:56 Sb: #7539-Advertising Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Greg Morse 72746,3451 (X) Greg, Well, certainly I take what you say deeply to heart! I didn't intend at ALL for there to be infighting, as the mood in my heart with my two comments had no true malice. I showed poor judgment in my comment to Ed, and showed confusion about what Frank defines as as Tomcat in my message to Frank. I honestly have tried to keep OUT of saying things that respond to competitor's comments! If you look back over messages, you'll find that there were plenty of opportunities for me to join in. But I didn't -- although it was hard! But my discipline did fail, and so I failed, and now I move on and say -- Bill D., Kevin D., and Ed, thanks for keeping me honest! And thanks, too, Greg, for the kindly way you phrased your enjoinder to keep on the "high road"! Best regards, Paul #: 7585 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 00:48:46 Sb: #Atlanta Fest? Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: [F] Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 So, now that everybody has kissed (?) and made up, I have a question. Just what was at the 'fest? Some of us didn't make it to Atlanta. I take it there was some neat stuff from the conversation that has been going on, but would somebody please tell me what IMS, FHL, and Delmar actually had? Thanks a lot! --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 7595 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 09:31:29 Sb: #7585-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, As I, too, came away a bit confused (is Kev's mini review in error?), maybe each of the pricipals, Frank, Ed and Paul, would post _their own_ impressions of the fest and what was going on in their booths. Nothing like getting it from the horses ....ahhh...err..hmmm.... mouth. Yeah ... that's the ticket! Steve There is 1 Reply. #: 7603 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 12:23:04 Sb: #7595-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Yeah, a report of what was going on in thier OWN booths! (Sorry, couldn't resist! Heh heh heh) ;-) --Colin #: 7607 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 15:51:53 Sb: #info Fm: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 To: ALL I hope that the recent exchange of zaps, reprimands, and apologies will not put a damper on the flow of information about ALL of the new 68k machines that has appeared here. Keep writing guys. I get on here several times a week to look for ANY information about the new stuff. I saw a suggestion from Kevin that messages from company reps be identified as such - that sounds fair. As far as "damaging comments", does anybody REALLY accept what the FORD salesman says about CHEVY's as gospel? The FORD guy knows in his heart that he has the best car in the world. If you want to know about CHEVY's, you ask the CHEVY guy, right? After all, a truly objective salesman would probably starve. So, keep answering all the questions as best you can, please. I have read just about every message in this section since it started, and I'm sure a lot of others have too. HMMM, there's a thought. I wonder if CIS has a way of counting how many times a message is read (like "accesses #" in the LIB's). JohnW JohnW There is 1 Reply. #: 7619 S15/Hot Topics 20-Oct-90 23:05:16 Sb: #7607-info Fm: Wayne Day 76703,376 To: John R. Wainwright 72517,676 (X) >I wonder if CIS has a way of counting how many times a message is read (like >"accesses #" in the LIB's). Not as far as I know, JohnW.... though it'd certainly be nice to have, sometimes. Wayne #: 7649 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 11:00:27 Sb: #Education Market Fm: CRAIG WYNN 72125,466 To: Paul Ward 73477,2004 (X) In a recent interview with John Scully he mentioned in effect that the release of the new cheap Mac's was their way of saying they are going after the home market. This marketing stradegy is going to get them into the public school class rooms like it did for them with their Apple machines. I don't want to see another OS9 machine like the COCO was get beached for the likes of the Apple just because of marketing or lack of it. The education market is ripe with a renewed national concern about our youth being prepared to compete on the world market. One of the best all around educational software products on the market I believe is the LOGO language. The best of the lot is LCSI's "Logowriter". It runs on the Apples, IBM PC's and a soon to be released version for the Mac's. Another outfit is Piradigan that sells, believe it or not, a OPPS Logo. It is the only language/enviornment sold today that was designed from the ground up to nourish the intellect. It is being written into the North Dakota Teachers Guidelines that all students by grade 6 should have experienced Logo. This is to go into effect by 1991. Once upon a time Tandy had a OS9 version of Logo called DL LOGO. Put one of these software products on the MM1 and I can sell my public school on the MM1 period. There are 2 Replies. #: 7650 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 11:43:20 Sb: #7649-Education Market Fm: David Betz 76704,47 To: CRAIG WYNN 72125,466 (X) Well, since LOGO is pretty much the same as LISP with a slightly different syntax, I suppose I could build and XLOGO from either XLISP or better yet, XScheme. I wonder if there would be a demand for this on the MM1 or the TC70? #: 7678 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 21:02:05 Sb: #7649-#Education Market Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: CRAIG WYNN 72125,466 (X) Excellent suggestion about LOGO! Mark Sheffield, are you listening? Actually, we are pursuing getting ourselves on the purchasing schedules of several school systems, so we will be getting clear and accurate guidelines to follow. BTW, I think that the recession and the rise of interest in UNIX and multimedia will put the MM/1 in good stead. Remember, too, that the Macs primary selling point is a user interface that make s the computer "generic". That is, if you put a similar interface on a different computer, then it ceases to be relevant that the computer is a Mac, or an IBM, or a UNIX workstation. And with the user interface we are developing (slowly now, quicker after the MM/1 starts shipping), we'll do just fine against the cheap Mac. After all, you can network ours cheaper, make it multiuser, do color multimedia, and so on. Plus, we have twice the clock rate! Not to mention that it seems like UNIX underneath, and if UNIX does as well as I think it will in the next three years, OS-9 will get a great kick! Paul There is 1 Reply. #: 7717 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 06:49:20 Sb: #7678-Education Market Fm: CRAIG WYNN 72125,466 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Mark I can appreciate the +'s of the MM1 vs say a Mac. Without the sort of software I mentioned its a now show though for the MM1. I cann't promote possibilites I'am afraid to say. Logo puts an individual right in charge of most of the computers enviornment with little programing skill. Once he catches on to what programing is the same language is fully capable of fullfilling futher insights into programing. Sure the MM1 has all the bells and whistles put it is essential that you provide a tool like LOGO that can ring the bells and blow the whistles. Craig #: 7672 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 20:14:53 Sb: #OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: all Software Consortium or Coalition. I would like to propose that all OS9 software/hardware suppliers join together to form a software consortium. The purpose of this would be the following: * Insure that software will be compatible on different hardware platforms. * Create a set of rules for software to follow. * Insure that software will be written to follow those rules. * Reduce or eliminate duplicate effort. All members of the consortium would be required to offer their software in the open market. Pricing would not be controlled by the consortium. All members would be required to make available lists of the projects they are working on to reduce duplicate effort. All would agree not to use this information to circumvent another members efforts. All members would agree to work together on key software to further insure compatibility. What we need at this juncture is a group effort to ensure that the greatest amount of different software for OSK is produced. Although it might benefit one company to make software unique to their hardware. It would require competitors to duplicate this effort with the end result being that instead of many different software packages being available, many of the same thing would be available. In the long run this will result in a reduced market. (continued) There are 2 Replies. #: 7686 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 06:48:32 Sb: #7672-#OSK Software Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) This sounds like an interesting idea. Something just occurred to me, though. You've been selling QT boxes and K-bus boxes for a while, and Peripheral Technology has been chugging along with ads in *68 Micro Journal* for some time, too. Seems like this would have been as good an idea some time back as now. Did the idea of a consortium only originate recently? There is 1 Reply. #: 7699 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 18:58:14 Sb: #7686-OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) >This sounds like an interesting idea. Something just >occurred to me, though. You've been selling QT boxes >and K-bus boxes for a while, and Peripheral Technology >has been chugging along with ads in *68 Micro Journal* >for some time, too. Seems like this would have been as >good an idea some time back as now. Did the idea of a >consortium only originate recently? Dear Jim Yes it did. Until now all OSK boxes ran with terminals and therefore were compatible. Now we are entering a new era with windows, GUIs etc. People are now doing graphics software and without any 'standard'. We could get into trouble. This is an area where Microware 'should' have done something as a windows and a GUI are more on the system level. However they have not and it is up to us to do these things. Also we are now getting CoCo users, some with bad habits, moving into the 68K arena. Software issues such as terminal support as well as graphics support are foreign to many. Without guidelines everyone will go off in different directions and Pandemonium will result. There are a lot of issues that have to be discussed. Keep the cards and letters coming. Frank #: 7793 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 09:39:45 Sb: #7672-#OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, I think its time for the consortium to start functioning. Rather than a chair-person, I'd like to suggest we have a 'secretary/moderator'. We can state our problems, areas of concerns, comments and/or propsed solutions. The secretary could codify these and when he felt we had arrived at a consesus publish them for approval and posting on the board (or elsewhere). May I further suggest that one of the sysops on this forum undertake this position. This will avoid unnecessary expense on the part of the individual. Two people come to mind - either Steve Weigard or Mike Ward. As far as I know, neither is involved in any of the hardware nor are they doing any programming for profit. This will avoid any of the participants being subject to accusations of conflict of interest. There are many people out there programming for the OSK machines and they _NEED_ this information so they won't have to redo their work. Ed Gresick DELMAR CO There are 2 Replies. #: 7818 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 22:28:33 Sb: #7793-#OSK Software Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) I assume that if this consortium forms, it would use the new private Section 13 as its discussion board, right? I think it's a good idea, but I bet a lot of developers and vendors will balk at disclosing everything they're working on. On the other hand, disclosing yourproject may discourage someone else from doing a competitive product, so there is an incentive. Maybe even too much incentive, to disclose vaporware? But at least we could discuss standards for grafix, terminal support, user interfaces, etc with compliance being voluntary. There are 2 Replies. #: 7889 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 03:47:07 Sb: #7818-OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 kn1 Mike, I believe the first task of the consortium will be to agree on 'standards' between the hardware vendors. This would deal mainly with screen control, keyboard output, etc. standards - really agreement on a set of termcap entries and for graphics - definitions. There is the possiblity that a hardware vendor may add some functions pecular to his machine. Should this occur, the software writer must be imformed of this so he may consider his options. Other problems may come up (like how is a mouse or other peripherals handled). Platforms I hadn't considered but should probably be considered are the Atari, the industrial and business hardware. I doubt we can get representives from these manufacturers so we'll have to 'wing it'. (It may be decided not to consider this hardware.) I don't think we should be involved in establishing user interface standards. That should be left to the programmer - we can end up with some very innovative user interfaces that way. (Look at what Word Perfect did to Word Star in the MS-DOS world.) There is no way a programmer can be compelled to follow these standards; all we can do is agree on a set of standards and disseminate the information. The most we could do is 'certify' that the software will run in an identical manner on the various platforms - but some sort of testing will have to be arranged to do that. And, in no way, shape or form can the consortium pass on the merits of a program. Let's leave that to the buyers and reviewers. (Continued) #: 7890 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 03:47:40 Sb: #7818-OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (Continued) I only suggested that programmers disclose their projects to assist others in deciding what project they should undertake. Yes, there can be problems but I think most if not all of the software writers (at least on this forum) will be honest and not intentionally mislead others. The potential market is big and such practices are not necessary. Also, there is nothing to prevent one programmer from contacting another as to what his specific plans are. And, with the programmers' permission, it would be desirable to let the buying public know what's in the works - this will help them decide what and when to buy. Also, it will assist the hardware vendor informing his customers as to what is in the works. Yes, I'm aware of some of the projects but I'm not at liberty to disclose or discuss them - a position I don't like as a hardware vendor. I'd like to re-emphasize one point. The consortium should be temporary - at least so far as the hardware vendors are concerned. We should be able to wrap up our work fairly rapidly if we can get started. It's function taken over by a formal group as soon as possible (yes, I do believe we'll need one). Ed Gresick DELMAR CO #: 7910 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:48:12 Sb: #7793-OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, I guess there is no reason not to start. I think that is one way to get the ball rolling. Have you checked with either of those two guys on doing this? We definately need information out or everyone will go off in different directions. Frank #: 7673 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 20:15:41 Sb: #OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: all (continued from last message) This is what happened to the SS50 bus market, the manufactures spent all their time fighting each other over petty things. The users tired of it and now there is no SS50 market. There was a point when it could have been expanded to SS64 and support the 68K but when one manufacture came out with a viable solution the other manufactures not only po-pooed it, they went out of their way to kill it. The end result is the same. Having seen this happen and seeing the way things are heading in this market, I want to do what I can to prevent history from repeating itself. If this consortium is set up properly it will benefit all users, hardware and software vendors. It will let the hardware and software vendors work on projects more beneficial to them. This is not to say that a hardware vendor, having spent a considerable amount of money and effort to make his hardware/software more competitive should have to share that without being compensated. In cases like this all he would be required to do is offer the software at what ever is considered a reasonable price for the other members hardware. This way he could still benefit from offering it to his customers at reduced or free price and maintain a competitive edge in reward for his efforts. Everyone please respond to this request with you comments and suggestions. I believe that this is more important to the future of OSK than you may think. Thank You Frank Hogg There are 3 Replies. #: 7684 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 22:42:54 Sb: #7673-#OSK Software Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, An excellent idea! Espescially for a small developer like myself; lets face it--the market is far from unlimited and if I can sell a product to people with a variety of OSK platforms then I _might_ even get my _costs_ back. Are you offering to act as a clearing house? That might create problems since you are a competitor, but I suppose that everyone involved in this will be a competitor of some kind. I take it that you are NOT suggesting that if a member is working on a XYZ software package that others would not have the same right. It seem that the problems you are speaking of are more in relation to system stuff. Having 2 or more GUIs would be a disaster. And lets face it, with a system like OS9 there should be NO excuses for incompatible software. What do you mean by "rules for software to follow". Are you thinking of user interfaces or mundane (important!!) stuff like default devices and port addresses? There are 2 Replies. #: 7696 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 17:29:58 Sb: #7684-OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) Hi Bob! I interpret 'rules for software to follow' as insuring compatibility of the software from machine to machine. User interface would be determine by the programmer. The current OSK market is much bigger than many realize. Aside from CDI, its biggest use is in 'imbedded systems' used by industry. Today, a typical system (without software) will start out at $15,000 and goes up (add a '0'). But, if you look in the shop office where the equipment is located or used you'll also find an MSDOS machine. Why? In most cases there AIN'T suitable software (read that as no 'Word-Perfect' or equivalent and no '1-2-3' or equivalent). We are starting to see a database (SCULPTOR) used and we expect to sell more SCULPTOR's to this market. It is wide open to good software that looks and feels like MSDOS software (but - you'll have to watch copyrights). This market is accustumed to paying good money for software. Penetrate the 'shop' office and we can start making inroads to the main office. If the market can develop, you can stop working for peanuts - you will be paid in walnuts . Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO #: 7700 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 19:10:39 Sb: #7684-#OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) Bob, Me, act as a clearing house. I think that those kind of details could be addressed later. What we need now is discussion especially from developers on what is needed. We must maintain compatibility between machines so developers can work to better their products rather than wasting time making the same product work on different platforms. As to preventing members from working on projects, nothing of the kind. That would inhibit creativity and reduce the quality of products. I also do not think that several GUIs would be a problem IF they were compatible. The key is for application software to run no matter what system it's on. As for 'rules of software' I was thinking that they would be like OS9 is. That is things like system calls etc would do the same thing on different machines. These would seem to only apply to GUIs and windows but other areas may apply also. Lets keep this discussion going and get others to put their 3 cents in. (Inflation, you know) Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7702 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 21:14:28 Sb: #7700-#OSK Software Fm: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, First impression is, I like it. I thik it would be beneficial to the entire OS9 community, vendors/developers/users all. Will get back to you with more specific thoughts after I have had time to consider it fully. Zack There is 1 Reply. #: 7706 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 21:57:48 Sb: #7702-#OSK Software Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Zack Sessions 76407,1524 (X) I'm not sure what would happen...the consortium, in some ways, is reminiscent of the Prisoner's Dilemma, the "conspire" option being replaced with "promote the development of OS-9/68000 software" and the "betray" option being replaced with "don't actively promote etc." The temptation to coast, let the other guy spend his resources on something that, by the terms of the consortium, would benefit you, would always be present. How could it be set up to discourage that from happening? There are 2 Replies. #: 7727 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 18:35:00 Sb: #7706-OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) James, Your point is well taken. It is not my intention to have the situation you describe. I have been in this position many times over the years suppling 68K software that I financed for other hardware . I did not mind because I did profit from those sales which is after all, why I am in business. The main reason for my proposal was and is to start a discussion on the subject. The details need to be worked out. Your input and others is what is needed and the points raised by you need to be considered. 5 or 6 years ago I approached FoxBase about their database which at the time ran on MSDOS and Unix. They were interested in doing a 68K port IF I gave them lots of money and paid a hefty royalty. IF the consortium approached a company like this the consortium would have more clout and the up front money could be shared by the members. Their percent of the profit on sales would be commensurate with their up front outlay. Members who did not put up the money would not profit from the sales but they would be able to have the software available for their machine at whatever cost the consortium decided. No one company should or would be put in a position of unwillingly backing another just because he was a member. The main reason for the issue I described was to prevent needless duplication of effort. If company A developed program X then A could give this as part of their hardware/software package to their customers as an incentive to buy (as Tandy does with Deskmate). Company B would be allowed to BUY X from company A for a reasonable amount. (The consortium would prevent abuses in these cases) This way A would be compensated for their effort and because B would have to PAY for X they would not have an unfair advantage. There are many details to work out and the above may not cover all cases or be fair as it is. However I think from this you can get the gist of what I am trying to do. It may not be possible to do all the things outlined and some companies may not agree with me. This is a start of the process to get everyone to work together for the collective good and to create the greatest #: 7728 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 18:37:12 Sb: #7706-#OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg 70310,317 To: James Jones 76257,562 (X) continued from last message. market for OSK. Frank There are 2 Replies. #: 7732 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 19:53:38 Sb: #7728-OSK Software Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Great. I was hoping to get replies indicating that the parties involved would choose the "conspire" alternative (which works out best for all). Your reply is very reassuring! #: 7752 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 15:40:08 Sb: #7728-#OSK Software Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, I have some ideas on this that I have been formulating for about a year and a half now. I think you'll find them of interest, and sufficiently concrete that you can get up and running very rapidly. Let me know if you are interested. Paul Interactive Media Systems, Inc. There is 1 Reply. #: 7758 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 17:17:51 Sb: #7752-OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, I would find anything of interest on this subject. Why don't you post them here so all could comment? Frank FHL #: 7697 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 17:34:36 Sb: #7673-#OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) I second Frank Hogg's idea. This is one area where we have to work together. I would add one other purpose, i.e., set levels of 'capability'. For lack of capability standards, I suppose we'll have to look to the MSDOS market (I apologize for the profanity ). The computer buyer (general public) is somewhat familiar with the software offered there. This will take some work on the part of the Consortium/Coalition (hereafter called 'C/C'). Defining 'capability' levels will assist the software developer target his market better. The life of the C/C should be limited. It should assist in getting the largest variety of software to the market place in as short a time as possible. Once this occurs, the C/C should cease operation - although it may be desirable to continue a similar function under a 'standards' committee - perhaps the OS9 Users Group. There may be instances where the software developer may not wish to follow the guidelines offered. The C/C should not (and indeed cannot) prevent this. To differentiate between software developed this way and that under the C/C guidelines, a 'seal' or other statement might be used. This 'seal' would only assure the buyer that the software will behave similarly on a variety of platforms (and _NOT_ that it performs according to the sellers claims or is free of bugs.) (Continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7698 S15/Hot Topics 23-Oct-90 17:35:31 Sb: #7697-#OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) I know, the theory of OS9 is that all software will run on any OS9 machine. Tain't so!! Two examples: The TOP group in Munich released a lot of public domain software in two different releases. Some software works on almost any machine - some doesn't. During my conversations with them, I was informed that almost no one in Europe is having any problems. Why? They are using ATARI ST's as their hardware platform. Apparantly there are differences in the port of OS9 to the ATARI. And, the Atari used in Europe is different from the ATARI sold here. (This problem would not be too bad if we could get the source code - unfortunately, only a limited amount of source code was released.) I never did get a satisfactory answer when I asked whether the TOP software worked satisfactorily on VME and Multibus systems The second example is with my CoCo3. I while back, I had a hard disk failure and wanted to recover as much data as possible. I immediately downloaded DeD, an excellent disk editor. One small problem - I don't use the CoCo keyboard or a monitor. I'm set up to operated from terminals only - the screen control codes in DeD are hard coded for a CoCo Screen. I agree with Frank - without this type of cooperation OSK is doomed to failure in the general market place so count me in. BTW, you'd think Microware would push this approach but .... . Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO There is 1 Reply. #: 7785 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 20:18:19 Sb: #7698-#OSK Software Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, What kind of things can one do in a program which make it so that it does not work on other machines (what did the TOP group do)? Screen controls codes, etc. are one thing we have been discussing here and there seems to be a bit of an agreement that termcap() will solve most of the problems (I don't, but that's another thread). Re: Microware. Yes, I agree that they should support this. Perhaps if a member of the group approached them? Actually, they should be doing this type of thing all on there on as a matter of self-interest. There are 2 Replies. #: 7794 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 09:45:05 Sb: #7785-#OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) Bob, I don't know what the specific problems are with the TOP programs. As I said, some work just fine - others don't (and of course, those are the ones for which we don't have source code). It may be as simple as files missing or in the wrong place - it may be that the version of 'cio' they're using is different - and it may be ???. The most common errors I remember are 208 - illegal service request, 216 - pathname not found and 227 - illegal trap code. There may've been some other errors, but I don't remember them. One user, on a 68030 system, can't change users' passwords - otherwise the mmon, logon, password, etc. programs work fine for him. (That suite of programs works just fine for me.) Another user on this forum (I think it's Mark Wuest) reported some other problems (I don't remember the details). I've sent messages and called them (TOP) regarding these problems - the answer has always been that they will look into them when they have time. So, I'm not really of much help to you. (We do have to understand TOP's problem, they've contributed over 30 MBytes of code that I know of to the public domain and supporting that much code is a lot of work. They have to eat, too.) (Continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7795 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 09:46:06 Sb: #7794-#OSK Software Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) Another example of compatibility problems deals with MW releases. When version 2.3 was released, I did not install the entire package at one time. I was running a hybrid - parts were 2.2 and parts were 2.3. According to MW, this is OK. (Jame Jones - please confirm.) I went to make a new directory using relative pathnames (.../dir/dir etc) - chd'd to it - it wasn't there. Tried it again - got an error - this directory already existed. Repeated the process using an absolute path name - everything OK. I was busy and didn't have time to check into it and frankly, forgot about it. A couple of days later, I was doing some clean-up work and went to dsave a directory elsewhere - dsave crashed. Same problem as I had earlier. To make a long story short, it turned out that the different versions of 'makdir' and 'cio' are not compatible (I didn't know 'makdir' used 'cio' - didn't even think about it - turns out that lots of programs use 'cio' - it is a math trap handler module). When I went completely to 2.3 everything was OK. Sequel - I later found the missing directories - they were located in the CMDS directory! Regarding possible compatibility problems, I think that's what Frank Hogg had in mind when he suggested forming the informal consortium. BTW, have you joined? Ed Gresick DELMAR CO There are 2 Replies. #: 7802 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 16:06:14 Sb: #7795-OSK Software Fm: James Jones 76257,562 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) You ran into a problem with a bug fix that influenced the behavior of a function in cio; making it behave as documented tripped up code that counted on the erroneous behavior. I'd have to go back and look at release notes for details. #: 7902 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:01:13 Sb: #7795-OSK Software Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, > BTW, have you joined? Nope, not yet. Where do I sign up . Your comments on missing files, etc. are important to developers. We really should decide on standard directories for init files, etc. With multi-user systems it is a bit more complex since different users might need different files/directories. It is not as simple as assuming that everyone has a "/dd/sys" where all these kinds of files can reside. Another thing we might look at is assigning new SVCs, port addresses additional getstt/putstt constants. For example, I'd hate to see 6 different values for a ss.screensize option--a program can handle things if the 'standard call' is not supported, but if it returns garbage values then things can really fry. And since MW did not bless us with an over-abundance (at least according to the manuals, I've not looked at the defs files) of get/setstts I see all kinds of new things developing, especially in the graphics departments. BTW, is anyone keeping track of all these ideas? #: 7906 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:42:54 Sb: #7785-#OSK Software Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 (X) These are just rambling thoughts... not really about the consortium, altho the obvious thrust of everyone's messages is about _display_ compatability for programs (personal input devices are a far lesser worry). In Europe, people use the Cumana OS9/ST port, which is said to include some windowing functions, MIDI driver, etc. The console terminal stuff alone can mean non-portable programs. I don't think coco programmers have bad habits... if anything, they adhere more than many others to device independence. BUT true, not in escape code independence, which is a different (and yes, important) subpart. (Sidenote: There's a beta OSK version of dEd which uses termcaps.) (Side question: is it time to assume that all terminals will be gfx capable?) Altho it may be happening again (brought on by CD-I and new computers), I think it's been about seven years since MW had real interest (read: time to invest) in the personal usage of OS9. Because their main market was in the controller field, they had no impetus to come up with or enforce UI standards. Each OS9 system installed was by definition a custom system, with its own custom drivers and program interfacing. (Sidenote2: I'm beginning to have a very strong feeling against wide use of xxStat calls... they don't work across either network or serial connections.) Jumping topics again (there's way too much to cover): enduser views are also a totally different subject. Obviously, easy-to-use programs can and should be written... but that's true of any system. However I will note that leaving all UI standards to programmers would be a mistake. We learn this truth best from the Amiga, which tried that for 5 years... yet now CBM is trying to enforce more standardization. Easy to see why: compare Mac programs to Amiga programs. The difference to the end user is super apparent. There is 1 Reply. #: 7907 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:43:27 Sb: #7906-#OSK Software Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) The real kinship of Unix and OS9 is in the variety of hardware installations. Fairly closed systems such as those on the Amiga and Mac and PCs, had one great advantage: knowing what the hardware is going to be like. Even on the CoCo, programmers could assume certain screen types, for instance. To some extent this is changing (Windows 3.0, color Macs)... but notice that figuring out solutions is taking _enormous_ programmer resources at those companies. And as I noted on Bitnet lately, solutions in the Unix world are highly geared towards the C user _only_. Their libraries hide a lot of gory details. Jumping subjects for a second, Mac programs also hide many details (from the user), and so are complex. Ever hear of a casual Mac user writing a windowing program, such as Coco users often do? Jump again: Microsoft says that an "experienced C programmer (with MS Driver Course diploma) averages 4-6 months to write his first OS/2 device driver." (!) X programs are still rare too... the learning curve is huge, and unless Desqview/X changes things, the overwhelming majority of X apps will continue (as now) to be developed for "in house" use only by major companies. Okay, now let's get to the real key point: what makes any OS really unique? Multitasking? No, that can be emulated or done by others. Visually fancy programs? Nah. Easy to use programs? Nope. Choice of runnable hardware? Not really. Modularity? Not unique nowadays. So why use OS9? What is the key attraction of OS9? (And by close extension, the CORE which we must somehow continue to provide in any display solution?) In other words, why do people stick with OS9? => To me, the key to OS9's uniqueness was and is, that it's relatively simple to learn, understand and program for... from _any_ language. How to accomodate this main precept should be one of the focii of discussion. Ideas? Termcap libraries for all languages (Basic, C, asm, Pascal, shell scripts?!), for instance? Or am I all wet? There is 1 Reply. #: 7926 S15/Hot Topics 31-Oct-90 20:42:16 Sb: #7907-OSK Software Fm: Bob van der Poel 76510,2203 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, Good points in your messages. Yes, GetStts can be a problem. But if my idea of device driver/descriptors would work, they too can be handled. Hey, I even have a name from my crazy scheme--"remote windows". I've been doing some more thinking about this, and it really should work. Again, the idea is to have a driver which would translate between the computers native screen i/o codes and that of a remote. The descriptor would have translation tables for both keyboard and screen codes. Not thinking here...but I suppose it could also fudge get/sutstt calls too. For now, I see no problem with simply ignoring incompatible codes. If you are running a gfx program and the terminal doesn't have gfx, then that is YOU problem. Even though it might be expensive, the remote window driver could even support windows, etc. Just a matter of keeping virtual screens in memory and doing updates at the proper time. I sort of see this as an evolving thing. Hopefully, it could be set up in an expandable format. Another thought--quite a few people might want to use old CoCos as terminals with the new computers. Be nice to have some compatiblity there. #: 7855 S15/Hot Topics 28-Oct-90 18:15:01 Sb: #7673-#OSK Software Fm: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank: I like the idea of the C/C. Seems to me that it would be in everyone's best interest to have some two way communication with Microware so that we don't set up a 'standard' only to have Microware release some new product that would supercede the user developed standard. I'd like to see a standard created for a means of associating a hardware port with with the type of terminal attached. For example, say I have a Televideo 925 on port /t1 and a DEC VT-100 on port /t2 and I normally log on to port /t1. In my ".login" file I set the environment variable TERM to 925. Microware's mail & uMacs now work great. My terminal is being used by someone so I go and log on to the VT-100 on /t2, my TERM environment variable is still (incorrectly) set to the 925 and any software that uses the TERM environment variable doesn't work so well any more. The termcap method seems to assume that a shop has only one make and model of terminal and/or that a user only logs on to one terminal and/or that you wouldn't have two people working in the same directory on different types of terminals. On my system at work I have THREE different sets of terminal definition files for three different software packages (Quick ED, Sculptor, and Mail). What a waste of disk space and effort! A standard file in a standard place with the association between ports and terminal types would be a big help. I wrote Microware a letter about this but they never bothered to answer. -J There are 3 Replies. #: 7908 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:47:11 Sb: #7855-OSK Software Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 (X) Jay, The only thing that will force any company to follow a standard is to have one well defined and used by many of their customers. I also agree with your comments about the environment being set for TERM based on who logs in. The TERM should be attached to the device while '.login' should be associated with your password file OR something along those lines. Obviously the way it is done now is not right. Rather than only identify the problem we should try to offer a solution. This is one area where the C/C could be useful. Frank #: 7916 S15/Hot Topics 30-Oct-90 15:25:26 Sb: #7855-OSK Software Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 (X) Jay, Of course, the TERM<->PORT relation would have to be optional, as my system is on a network where people log in with about 6 different terminal types. Since we don't all always log in from the same spot, most of our terminals end up with two programmed keys: "setenv TERM xxxx" and "TERM=xxxx;export TERM" (for Unix systems). It would be nice if terminal manufacturers would come up with a standard (egads! there's that word again!) for querying terminals that they could all agree with and stick to. I ain't holding MY breath! Mark #: 7974 S15/Hot Topics 04-Nov-90 00:43:41 Sb: #7855-OSK Software Fm: Brett Wynkoop 72057,3720 To: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 (X) ~ Greeting- There is already a standard in the 6809 os9 for terminal type determination. It is the sys/ttytype file. here is part of mine below. /term coco3 /t2 vt100 /t3 vt100 /w1 coco3 /w2 coco3 It goes on like that. There is even a utility for setting the terminal type on login. It is called ttyset. I think Pete did it. A ttytype file could be used in OSK and a utility could be written to set your env var to the termtype at login. Right now if you log into my system your startup files tells you what type of term the system thinks you are on and gives you a chance to change it then and there. Same would work for OSK. Not very hard at all. Matter of fact I would have it going now if I had my MM1 yet! Paul get the whips out and drive the rodents faster! ;) -Brett uucp..........marob!davidge!wa3yre!wynkoop #: 7677 S15/Hot Topics 22-Oct-90 20:57:17 Sb: #7589-Fest Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, you bet I hve customers waiting! Not to mention ME! Every time we get together a developer's system, it sits on my desk for a few hours, then zips away.... Talk about temptation. There is the story of the King Tantalus... FCC is going great guns, by the way, and they were impressed with the care that we took with the inclusion of RF suppressing ferite beads in the design, the choice of case, -- essentially, there was only one thing that hand to be changed, and that was easy. Now it goes through a perfunctory test, then on to the Paperwork Jungle in DC. You know how that is, my friend! Once FCC Class B is in, the wait will be over, and we start shipping out to our wonderful, patient, marvelous customers. Paul #: 7815 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 21:41:47 Sb: #7506-#Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Frank Hogg 70310,317 (X) Frank, let me jump in on this public forum to say that now I am confused as to what I did or did not see at your booth. I saw the non-functional TC-09 prototype board (same as April Fest, it seemed) and a likewise non-working TC-70 board. By non-working I mean it wasn't plugged in and running, maybe it was workable. I think it's good of you to have these boards out where folks can see and touch them, BTW -- in a working MM/1, you can't even see the main board very well. And you had the big K-Bus system running in a cabinet. Great to watch, but since I saw no grafix on it, just text, I assumed it was one of your Hazelwood 68000 or 68020 cards in there, not a TC-70. "Assumed" since like you said, your booth was mobbed most of the time. Now if that was a TC-70 running in that cabinet, I apologize for my own impression that there was no TC hardware running at the Fest. I'm not one of the folks who reported such to Paul, but that's what I thought. Was that a TC70? --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 7911 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:49:09 Sb: #7815-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, There seems to be confusion about what a Tomcat is and that also seems to confuse those who read my message to Paul the other day. Please refer to my current ads in Rainbow for the last months where I tried to clarify this very issue. The problem lies in the ability for the Tomcat to be more than one thing while also being different things. It can be a TC9 or a TC70 or also any K-Bus based computer we make or all of them. When we decided to come out with the Tomcat as a product we decided to include ALL computers based on the K-Bus. The TC9, TC70 and all the other K-Bus boards can be assembled in a bewildering array to create various types of computers all of which fall under the heading of TOMCAT! Consider the Mac. What is a Mac? Mac is the name of the computer type like Tomcat. A Mac SE is one model of the Mac. A TC9 is one model of the Tomcat. Unlike the Mac the Tomcat can be more than one computer at the SAME TIME which is where the confusion is. The Tomcat is like NO other computer in the WORLD! There is nothing to compare it too. The Tomcat defies description because of its flexibility and that is my main marketing problem. Sorry for your confusion, the Tomcats you saw at Atlanta were not running either a TC9 or TC70. They were running a 16Mhz 68000 and a 10Mhz 68000 with terminals. Both had 2 meg RAM, 40 Meg hard drives etc. The speed tests that Kevin Pease ran were on the 16 Mhz Tomcat. The TC70 at the show was a working prototype but because the OSK port was not finished we did not run it. The TC9 was a display prototype. Both were there to show that they were indeed real. The TC9 was a completely different prototype from the one at Chicago. This one is the preproduction model that will go in production in a few weeks. The TC70 is IN production now although there are still some small software details to be done. BTW have you gotten your MM1? I couldn't help but notice your many positive comments about it here on the forum and your eager anticipation on getting it. I am sure that it will live up to your expectations. The running demos on it at the show were impressive. There is 1 Reply. #: 7912 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:51:10 Sb: #7911-Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (continued from last message) Please join the software group here so that you will be assured that any products you create will run on ALL the OSK machines out there. Both in place for years and the new ones. Best of luck Frank #: 7814 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 21:15:23 Sb: #7420-Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Paul, Mary Kay was a very positive presence at your booth -greeted me very warmly when I wandered up. If she sells enuf to buy a Cadillac, will you give her a Pink MM/1? First time she's heard that joke today? --mike k #: 7720 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 08:25:47 Sb: #7595-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve, Ha! Paul #: 7721 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 08:35:41 Sb: #7603-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, Well, OK, a report of what was goin on in our OWN booth! First, we were right next to the guys from Detroit who do Lyra, so we had musical accompaniment -- and we were right across from the CoCo Pro! booth, where frequent PA announcements were being made -- made us all feel at home! All we missed were Lonnie's sales ladies and his fancy wardrobe! It was especially nice to see Cray Augsburg and Greg Law, also of Rainbow fame. At our booth we have five MM/1's (actually we had four later as one went up to someone's room for something) showing a lot of Mike Haaland's and Kevin Darling's demos, as well as a slide show viewer for the M/1 by Kevin Pease, our hardworking hardware designer. The slide show viewer runs from a simple script file and shows a bunch of GIF images that have been moved to the IFF format, which IMS believes is the Way To Go for a great deal of work (it is the CD-I standard, and is used by Amigas and by HUGE software firms like Electronic Arts -- also, it is the standard accepted by the ANSI Hypermedia committee that IMS is part of). Mike Haaland had his version of Tetrix running, and the CoCo Maze program, screaming by in random colors. There were severalother graphics demos from Mike that were showing off the library support he has built up from Kevin's drivers. Also, Kevin showed some Amiga demos he had downloaded and modified for the MM/1, including an Imperial Walker from Star Wars, firing lasers, Star Trek, The Next Generation's Enterprise going into hyperspeed in a flash, while the them song played (and played and played, in beautiful Ives-esque antiphony to our booth next door) ... There are 2 Replies. #: 7722 S15/Hot Topics 24-Oct-90 08:48:11 Sb: #7721-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) .. and there was my personal favorite, Dave Letterman, in an animated sequence, throwing a wad of paper at the monitor. Kevin worked very hard on these demos -- thanks! It should be noted, too, that one of the demos shown EATS UP an Amiga, but runs nicely on ours and allows you to flip to another window and do some other work. We also had a database and wordprocessor there, but, strangely, no one asked about them ... . We had some press releases to hand out (we'll get thos posted here!) and sold T shirts and other things. Zack Sessions helped us out by selling some of our Bob van der Poel stock, which sold nicely (as did Zack's OS9 games). Incidentally, one of the demos was Pyramid Solitaire, by Zack, ported by Mike Haaland in about a day and a half. Computers were there for preorders, but not for sale, pending FCC Class B approval, something IMS feels very strongly about, and I think our customers appreciate it when we say that, for OSK to become mainstream on the MM/1, the MM/1 has to compete with the big boys, FCC approval and all. We also put little orange stickers on the lapels of folks who came by and really liked the MM/1. By the end of Saturday, just about everyone had a sticker (only some vendors were without, because they had not come over, especially some folks selling RS-DOS stuff. i am not sure they understood where all the OS9 interest had come from! Some people even had several orange stickers. We had a great time, and BOY, it was tiring -- and exhilirating. Excellent response. The next day after the Fest, we had lunch at the Coca Cola headquarters, courtesy of Newton White, a Fest organizer. Then we hopped over to Georgia Tech to a fest that included Macs and PS/2s, getting information and insight into what students want. One popular PS/2 demo was a game of -- get this -- Pyramid Solitaire. The Windows 3.0 demo seemed dead in comparison. There was also a MIDI demo on the PS/2. That's all for now! The original prototype of the MM/1 went along for some demos. Signetics #: 7740 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 00:57:38 Sb: #7721-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 (X) Gee...do your best to accomodate someone, and they compare you to someone wearing Italian shoes ! Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products There is 1 Reply. #: 7751 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 15:37:04 Sb: #7740-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 To: Dave Myers 71750,210 (X) Ha! Well, you did a fantastic job, Dave. I just couldn't resist noting the FAMILIAR elements of the fest that made it a delight, and well (sniff) nostalgic! Paul Interactive Media Systems, Inc. There are 2 Replies. #: 7769 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 01:35:47 Sb: #7751-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 next year, we can add even MORE "familiar features"...lessee, bump the booth cost, add a stuffed animal....yeah, THAT's the ticket! Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products #: 7773 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 06:05:18 Sb: #7751-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Paul K. Ward 73477,2004 Sounds great, Paul! Wish I could have been there. Maybe I could have snuck one out under my shirt or something! :) --Colin #: 7777 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 09:51:38 Sb: #7603-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Hi Colin! Reporting on our booth ... We displayed five operating production SYSTEM IV machines, one of which was installed in a tower case to accomodate additional drives. Three machines were running a slide show demonstrating the VGA graphics capabilty of the SYSTEM IV. In addition to a wide variety of pictures, a pc board layout and a schematic diagram were displayed with amazing detail and clarity. The reaction by the attendees to the SYSTEM IV and especially the VGA graphics was very rewarding. Many commented that the graphics displayed were the best at the show. The machine in the tower case was used to demonstrate various application programs including my Point-of-Sale System written in SCULPTOR. We were able to compare how they performed on a VGA monitor vs normal terminals (Wyse 60, Wyse 30 and a Tandy DT100). We were showing a public domain 'windows' program from the TOP Munich group in Germany. This program not only allows windows on the VGA screen but you can have windows on terminals hooked up to the serial ports. And, flipping between windows was fast - as fast as the terminals could write their screens. And when flipping windows on the VGA screen, the rewrite was virtually instantaneous! The remaining machine was used to demonstrate an alternate operating system written by Dan Farnsworth called MONK (an excellent single-user operating system similar to FLEX but with improvements). Dan has written some excellent software and is writing more. Of special interest is a program that will allow Color Computer RS-DOS programs to run on the SYSTEM IV. Dan has more work to do to finish it. (Continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7778 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 09:52:27 Sb: #7777-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) No special procedures were necessary to boot MONK. Place the MONK boot disk in the floppy drive and hit the RESET button. A menu appears allowing the user to select the device to boot from. Select the floppy drive and MONK is up and running. If desired, the boot file can be placed on the hard drive and the hard drive can be selected for boot. The menu includes an option to set which device to autoboot from. BTW, the SYSTEM IV will allow installing most any operating system capable of being run on a 68000. Peripheral Technology (co-exhibitor and manufacturer of the SYSTEM IV) was selling K4 boards and kits. The 16 MHz high-performance K4 board is the heart of the SYSTEM IV. Based upon the Motorola 68000 microprocessor, this XT size system board is jam-packed with features such as 4 serial and 2 parallel ports, battery-backed up clock, on-board floppy disk controller supporting high density drives and 7 PC/XT expansion slots. The K4 is IBM PC/XT hardware compatible - meaning you can use top-notch, low-cost peripherals available from your local computer store! Up to 4 MBytes of RAM on the mother board with an additional 8 MBytes available on an optional expansion board should more than satisfy the needs of the most memory-hungry user. One of the highlights of the show for us, was when Kevin Pease came over to our booth and asked if he could run his 'DRYSTONE' test on our machine. We agreed and he measured the performance of the SYSTEM IV at 1666 drystones! This was with VGA installed and running and other processes either waiting or sleeping. Had VGA been removed, no change in performance would have occurred. The SYSTEM IV performance is independent of the graphics and memory installed. (Continued) /ex There is 1 Reply. #: 7779 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 09:53:21 Sb: #7778-#Atlanta Fest? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) Software - we had SCULPTOR from MPD and QUICK ED from Windsor Systems for sale at some very good prices . QUICK ED is one of the most powerful editor/formatters I have worked with - and it is fairly easy to use. Its document formatting capabilities are awesome. QUICK ED is also available for MS-DOS. (If graphic capabilities were added to QUICK ED, it would make a great desk top publishing system.) I think most everyone is familar with SCULPTOR - don't need to say more here. We also had some OSK productivity tools from Windsor Systems for sale: IMP - an Intelligent Make Program, far superior to MW's Make program. FLEXELINT - A lint program and a must for serious C programmers. DISAM_OS9 - A high-speed, three-pass 680x0 disassembler. WINDOWS - C Source Code Windowing Library. PROFILE - Designed to profile user-state programs. PAN UTILITIES - 40 useful utilities supplied in a C Source Code package. DISK CACHING - A high speed disk caching system - won't work on all systems, but when it does, can speed things up a great deal. Expensive - but a free demo is available to try on your machine. PC9 - MSDOS to OS-9 Windowing System. Full details of the SYSTEM IV are in DL15 - 'SYS.TXT' or contact me directly. For other information, contact me directly. Overall I was very satisfied at the reception we received from the show attendees. BTW - all orders we received at the show have been shipped. Thanks for your interest. Ed Gresick DELMAR CO There is 1 Reply. #: 7816 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 22:20:05 Sb: #7779-Atlanta Fest? Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, I was impressed by the music synth program and little debugger-disassembler. But I didn't know you had a LINT (FlexLint) for sale. I take it this is for Microware's 680x0 C source. How much were you asking for it? THis is a real boon to the OSK C user! PS: I really like your machines. --mike k #: 7746 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 04:48:33 Sb: #Consortium Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: 70310,317 (X) This sounds like a wonderful Idea. I recomend that the OS9 UG imediatley form a committe of interested parties to study the issues and publish a recomended set of standards. If the os9 UG can't handle the task then I recomend that we firm a new OS968k/OS9000 ug and make that a first order of business. By the way Frank I am not an Employee of Interactive Media Services although I have done some contract work for them and have a vested interest in there success. However I also have a vested interest in the whole OSK comunity. That is what motivated the MM/1 design. A graphics platform for OSK that also runs OS9 well.I am serious about the new UG Idea as if the current one can't handle a standards comittee then it does not deserve to exist and should be abandoned. Frank maybee you or Paul or Ed could head up the committe or Maybe someone like Carl Kreider or Pete Lyall could take the position. Kevin Peas 70516,1633 There is 1 Reply. #: 7757 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 17:16:42 Sb: #7746-#Consortium Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 (X) Kevin, Knowing how the UG works I doubt that they would be a good place to have study the issues. This is after all a commercial issue where money is involved. However I would not want to say no to any idea or input. As far as having me or another principal head this up, that is a good question. Having someone like me do it might cause hard feelings as I have been known to speak my mind and do not suffer fools gladly. Someone with a good deal more patience and without such a close financial interest would be more acceptable to all. I think a standards committee could be considered as well. We need to continue discussion on this. Frank Hogg FHL There is 1 Reply. #: 7856 S15/Hot Topics 28-Oct-90 18:20:22 Sb: #7757-#Consortium Fm: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Sound ok we need to find someone who can headup the group who will also spend the necessary time to do the job right. We still need a standards commitee somwhere so that standards can be set which are best for the comunity rather than best for anyone vendor. There is 1 Reply. #: 7909 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 21:47:47 Sb: #7856-Consortium Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Kevin Pease 70516,1633 (X) Kevin, Boy I sure agree there. In most cases when standards are set that benefit only one company they also are limited to that companies hardware, and that limits the standards. Standards need to be flexible to be able to take advantage of the future. This is tough because it is very hard to predict the future. The maximum amount of input from a varied group of people will be the best insurance for us. This is the best way, out in the open, to prevent a standard from being limited to just one hardware platform. Right now with the TC70 and MM1 using the same graphics it would be very easy for the standard to be limited by that. We have to be careful to see that that doesn't happen. Most (ALL) programmers will say that they do not let their hardware influence their software design, but years of working with programmers has shown that not to be the case. The more input the better. The more discussion the better. Frank #: 7768 S15/Hot Topics 25-Oct-90 22:05:13 Sb: #Graphics Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, Interesting thing came up today. Twas about how fast a bunch of TC9's would be doing graphics as graphic terminals vs serial graphic terminals. The number was 4. Sooo... If you had four graphics terminals running at 38,400 baud on a 68K system how would that compare to four TC9s running on the bus. This is assuming that the graphics manipulation was done by the 68K that was also on the bus. Now, as I see it you would have a 16 Mhz 680x0 doing the stuff. A terminal would be doing 3,840 8 bit characters per second going to the terminal. A 16 Mhz 680x0 does 32000 or so 8 bit cycles per second. I know that this is not correct and if it were it would be further divided by the cycle time of the instructions etc. Also the fact that the terminal is doing 'some' of its graphics processing on-board would affect things. We can presume that the TC9s on the bus would be lots faster. But do you have a better feel for just how much faster?? Fun things to ponder while we're waiting for Bob. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 7770 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 02:13:28 Sb: #7768-#Graphics Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Frank - Yah, interesting. But I'm confused a tiny bit :-). Is the question: "How would a TC9 compare to using a theoretical 38K baud gfx terminal?" Depends on the setup. Setup #1 = The 680x0 is running OSK, and the TC9's are used as terminals. Since gfx terminals would not impose a load on the 680x0 cpu (other than interrupt-driven output, which might also be needed to talk to TC9s), then I'd throw out the stipulation that the 68K does all the gfx manipulation. That concept was really meant for this: Setup #2 = One (or more) TC9 is running L-II; all are used for terminals; and the 680x0 is dedicated to gfx manipulation. Both setups = After thinking and rewriting answers for 20 minutes, I suddenly realized that... the answer is impossible to give! That is, without knowing how fast those other 38K baud terminals _really_ are at gfx. I mean, if they really _can_ keep up at 38K baud and draw say, 900 circles a second (at 4 bytes/esc code), then those are very nice gfx terminals and no way could anyone beat their speed. See what I mean? Hard to compare anything against theoretical terminals ;-). There is 1 Reply. #: 7788 S15/Hot Topics 26-Oct-90 21:14:26 Sb: #7770-Graphics Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kevin, Yeah, you ran into the same problems I ran into. I thought that with your experence with graphics you might have a better guess than me. I have a Falco 5000 terminal with B&W graphics so I guess I could get some idea from tests on that to see how fast it is. Let's see here... let me look at my schduel... 90 is booked up... 91 seems pretty tight... hmmmm oh well maybe someone else has the time. Frank #: 7809 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 20:42:43 Sb: #Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Oooh, sounds impressive Ed. I really wish I could have made it. Here is a good question - just how compatable are these OSK machines with each other? Can you take a disk out of a System IV and stick it in a MM/1 (and have it work?) --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 7885 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 03:43:25 Sb: #7809-#Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 (X) Colin, Sorry you didn't make it - maybe you can make the next one. Your question: Can you take a disk out of a System IV and stick it in a MM/1 (and have it work)? First to qualify my answers - I can speak authoritively for the SYSTEM IV. I don't have an MM/1 so my statements about it are based on my understanding of that machine. Also, I have to divide your answer into three parts - plain 'text' type programs, programs that use graphics and disk formats. Programs not using graphics - In this sense, the SYSTEM IV is a 'vanilla' machine. It uses a standard 68000. Programs, whether compiled on the SYSTEM IV or other machines (the Hazelwood boards used in FHL's QT series, Motorola and Mizar boards used in VME systems, etc.), all worked on each of the other machines. Exception - some programs compiled on the Atari ST under OS9 have not worked on any of the above machines. We _think_ these programs use a feature of the ST that the other machines don't have. Not having the source files for these programs I can't say what the problem is. (No, we haven't dissassembled the code.) (Continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7886 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 03:44:30 Sb: #7885-#Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) The MM/1 and TC70 use the Signetics 68070 chip. The instruction set for this chip is supposed to be identical to the 68000 so there should be no problem. I sent a set of the TOP disks to one of the MM/1 developers. He did try a couple of the programs and reported that they did work OK. He hasn't had time to try them all, so I don't know about the programs that won't run on the hardware described above. Programs using graphics - There _may_ be a problem here. We are using the standard ANSI sequence set where possible. Unfortunately, ANSI does not cover color. We filled part of the gap with 'IBM ANSI COLOR' sequences but they are not complete. (We are talking to Keving Darling and FHL to agree on a 'standard'.) Disk drive formats - MW has set standards for 720K drives, both 5 1/4" and 3 1/2". The drivers on the SYSTEM IV follow these standards. I assume the MM/1 will also follow these standards. MW has _not_ set standards for high-density drives. When we decided to support high density drives we called MW and asked for their recommendation - they would not provide any. We checked with some of the other manufacturers providing VME boards. We couldn't find any that were supporting high-density drives. We set 'TOS' and 'SCT' (sectors on track 0 and sectors per track) to 34 sectors per track. We tried 36 sectors but had some problems with some manufacturer's drives. 35 sectors seemed OK so we settled on 34 to be safe. This work was done about six months ago. (Continued) There is 1 Reply. #: 7887 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 03:45:30 Sb: #7886-#Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) (Continued) When I sent the TOP disks (3 1/2", high density) to the developer I mentioned earlier, he couldn't read them. Turned out that his TOS and SCT were set to 33 sectors per track. Using 'moded' (more on that later) he was able to change his descriptor and read the disks. At the Atlanta CoCo fest, I asked Kevin Pease about the selection of 33 sectors. He said he had experienced some problems with 34 sectors so he backed off. It was hectic there and we were not able to continued our discussions. This is one of the subjects the consortium should discuss. OS9/68000 comes with a utility called 'moded'. This utility allows the user to make or change a device descriptor easily. Thus, you can have any number of descriptors for a given drive. For a quick or temporary change, a pd utility called 'dmode' is available to change the device descriptor 'on the fly'. This utility is also available under LII so you may be familiar with it. I'm sorry I couldn't give you a simple yes or no answer. To repeat, I can't speak for IMS and I don't have a MM/1 so I can't test it. I don't know of anyone who has run tests on both machines. So, I've tried to answer as accurately and completely as I can. Ed Gresick DELMAR CO There are 2 Replies. #: 7892 S15/Hot Topics 29-Oct-90 05:31:28 Sb: #7887-Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) And to all that, I'd add that when fancier cpus become more popular (020/030+), you can also run into trouble. There are already a couple of compiled programs in the libs, which have 68020 instructions in them... the 68000 machines can't run those (and usually blow up). Gotta hit the sack soon, but have another comment on all this I'll try to remember for tonight. Oops. Better write it down. Okay. Later! zzzzzz #: 7943 S15/Hot Topics 02-Nov-90 22:38:34 Sb: #7887-#Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, Thanks. I really did understand your answer. I just want to see all of these OSK machines work with one another. To be quite honest, I don't think that they would have much of a chance if they aren't somewhat compatable. Everybody wins that way. --Colin There is 1 Reply. #: 7954 S15/Hot Topics 03-Nov-90 02:53:24 Sb: #7943-Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Colin J. Smith 73777,1360 Colin, You're right - compatibility among the machines is _most_ important. We'll do our best in that direction. Ed Gresick - DELMAR CO #: 7811 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 20:54:08 Sb: #7222-#MM/1 Software Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Hi Glen! Aren't you the Toronto plumber who did some great rock scores on Ultimuse? Yes, it's coming to the MM/1. Anyway, currently only Logitech mice (or the compatible Mouse Systems' White Mouse) are supported, but other mice are just a question of writing other device drivers. --mike knudsen (Ragtimer) There is 1 Reply. #: 7859 S15/Hot Topics 28-Oct-90 18:58:04 Sb: #7811-MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Hi Mike... Yeah, that's me, but I live in Vancouver, B.C. now. Moved here in March '89 for the housing boom. Business has been great! I still mess with MIDI sometimes, but don't have much spare time lately. A question for ya: Why won't Umuse (shareware version) start in a VDG window started after bootup by me? It works just fine when I boot up in a VDG only setup, but gives only error 37 when I try it the other way. #: 7812 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 21:00:27 Sb: #7273-#CoCoFest Report Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, the smartest move at the Fest was IMS and CocoPro laying on the hot hors d'oevres during YOUR session. They knew it was gonna run thru dinnertime! Best regards, mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 7822 S15/Hot Topics 28-Oct-90 00:13:46 Sb: #7812-CoCoFest Report Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike - yah, the food was a good idea and a nice move! Just wish I hadn't been asleep giving my own seminar . Thought of tons of stuff I didn't even cover, the next day of course. And all of us were asleep while eating OUR dinner late that night. Or maybe it was just Frank's jokes that caused that . #: 7813 S15/Hot Topics 27-Oct-90 21:07:01 Sb: #7399-#CoCoFest Report Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Dave Myers 71750,210 (X) Dave, congrats to you and Nancy on a great Fest. Nancy was SOOO gracious to the Second City contingent when we showed up at the exhibit rooms at MIDNITE. Real Southern hospitality. Also I definitely appreciated not having to choose between overlapping seminars, even tho I did have to stop mine 15 minutes early so the next one could set up (that was Kev, heck he could've waited, grin!). I would have attended many more seminars if not busy at my booth. Thanks again for a great Fest! --mike k PS: Yes, DO turn that PA down next year. There is 1 Reply. #: 7824 S15/Hot Topics 28-Oct-90 02:59:50 Sb: #7813-CoCoFest Report Fm: Dave Myers 71750,210 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Thanks for joining us, Mike! I've heard about the P.A. from a few folks now, and will definitely be mindful of it in the future...just wish someone would have SAID something! . Yes, I remember you guys coming in...we were JUST about to close the doors, and here comes a bunch of road-weary warriors . No way we could have said "sorry guys...but how was your trip?" . We were really glad to see you, at any rate...most everyone else was accounted for, and we were hoping that you didn't run into NJ traffic (even though you were heading south from Chicago ;-) ). At any rate, thanks for the kind words! We hope to see you in Chicago, and thanks again for joining us! Dave Myers CoCoPRO! Products #: 7915 S15/Hot Topics 30-Oct-90 15:25:20 Sb: #7343-#CoCoFest Report Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Ches Looney 73016,1336 (X) Ches, I am sorry I did not make it to the 'fest. I had 4 RFP's in house at once. You are familiar with that one eh? There is 1 Reply. #: 7920 S15/Hot Topics 30-Oct-90 19:32:05 Sb: #7915-CoCoFest Report Fm: Ches Looney 73016,1336 To: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 Too bad you missed it, but the recent give-and-take here was almost more interesting. It was a good Fest. Ches #: 7997 S15/Hot Topics 04-Nov-90 22:12:25 Sb: #os9 standards Fm: Robert A. Larson 75126,723 To: all I do think getting together a group of os9/68k manufacturers, software developers, and users together to create standards for areas that Microware has ignored is a good idea. This should include both hardware and software. Hardware may need support in both the dirver level and the applications software to take full advantage. Software standards are needed to make sure programs don't prevent use of each other and to make sure they can be used together. A readily available library would also be a boon to software developers. One of the first things this commitee should do is grap a portion of the "user" space in each of the areas that microware has split between system and user spaces. Signal numbers, error codes, and status codes are among these. This does not mean that they should be assigned fast, just reserved for future use. A few things I think this commitee should look into: Setstat code for drop dtr. Better login program. (Encript the passwords, root should NOT be able to examine users passwords.) Non-root accessable data about users. Preferably with the same programmer interface as unix getpwuid, getpwuid, etc. I have ported and written quite a bit of software for os9/68k that is freely available. (Source code only, of course. I do not distribute binaries.) Soon to be release is my unix-compatability library, which does cover the getpw* routines, and my own login program will follow. Developers of free software should not be excluded, a lot of the best software on os9 is free. (What terminal programs do you use on os9?) Users should be allowed input as well. We don't need another standards committee that ignores what users need. There is 1 Reply. #: 8012 S15/Hot Topics 05-Nov-90 10:45:34 Sb: #7997-#os9 standards Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Robert A. Larson 75126,723 (X) Good ideas! (We talked MW out of the source for our serial ports - sc8x30 - and changed it ourselves so that _ss_enrts() or whatever they supplied actually did dtr). Why di they think anyone would rather toggle *THAT*? Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 8220 S15/Hot Topics 16-Nov-90 07:24:29 Sb: #8012-os9 standards Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 (X) Er.... that's what the OS-9 UG is for. #: 8015 S15/Hot Topics 05-Nov-90 11:24:19 Sb: #7855-#OSK Software Fm: Mark Wuest 74030,332 To: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 (X) Jay, After some thinking, I think the real answer would be an inteligent shell available (PD) to all. At least a widely useable Bourne shell. We use zsh, a commercially available programmable shell. What is relevant to the issue at hand is the potential of making decisions in your .login shell: if (tty == "/term) setenv TERM hp2621 else setenv TERM vt100 or whatever you wanted to do. I'm not on that system, so I cannot tell you exactly what mine does, but it is something like that. Oh, I just did a "head .profile" on my Unix system: case `tty` in /dev/tty52) TERM=5420 break ;; /dev/tty77) TERM=coco break ;; and so on... This would solve a lot of other problems and complaints people have about OS9. My purchasing zsh (which also has aliases) solved *SO* many complaints I was getting in one fell shwoop. Mark There is 1 Reply. #: 8056 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 07:44:51 Sb: #8015-OSK Software Fm: Jay Truesdale 72176,3565 To: Mark Wuest 74030,332 (X) Mark, Using the "DO" command processor that comes with the Pan Utilities (from Delmar or Windsor Systems) in your .login file might be able to do the same thing as the more intelligent shells as DO can access the environment variables. On second thought, maybe not as it would probably be run in a sub-shell and so the changes to the environment might not make it back to the parent? Any way the thought ocurred to me that perhaps MW wants to keep the shell 'lean and mean' for imbedded applications, etc. which is what OS9 was meant for in the first place. Maybe they should have two versions, one for development systems and one for imbedding in systems? I considered 'zsh' and alternatives but never made the time to follow up on them, especially since we got 'do' with the Pan Utilities. -J #: 8053 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 00:06:36 Sb: #New machines Fm: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 To: All I keep checking in here every night hoping to see some message traffic dealing with the new machines/software, but everyone must be off working their little fingers to the bone getting them ready! _Lots_ of messages on the CoCo list on Internet - too bad we couldn't pull some of that over here! Interesting dialog concerning keyboard drivers and windows, among other things. Can ya tell that I'm suffering from the "MS-DOS/waiting for the new computer" blues?? ...Jim There are 2 Replies. #: 8054 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 01:46:47 Sb: #8053-New machines Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Yah, it's the calm before the storm . I've been thinking about reposting some of the Internet stuff here. I don't see why it couldn't be done. #: 8057 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 08:08:49 Sb: #8053-#New machines Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Jim Peasley 72726,1153 (X) Jim, I monitor the CoCo List daily and would be happy to post the resulting capture files to a LIB _if_ there's be any interest. Folks? What about it? Steve There are 2 Replies. #: 8058 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 08:29:59 Sb: #8057-New machines Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Post them! #: 8079 S15/Hot Topics 08-Nov-90 04:11:42 Sb: #8057-#New machines Fm: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 To: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 (X) Steve, Please post!!! Ed There is 1 Reply. #: 8083 S15/Hot Topics 08-Nov-90 10:13:38 Sb: #8079-New machines Fm: Steve Wegert 76703,4255 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) Ed, Ok ... I'll start with today's traffic. Look for LS1108.AR in LIB 14. If the interest continues, so will I. :-) If not ... we can always work something out via UUCP. Steve #: 8068 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 23:24:24 Sb: #7859-#MM/1 Software Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Hi -- yes, I guess new houses need new pipes too. Let's see, you mean a VDG window converted from a real L2 window with a xmode type=01? Error 37 means it can't get the 6K grafix VDG screen allocated, which thanks to a bug or feature in L2 that 6K has to come out of System Memory, a precious commodity. Do you have a lot of other windows open, or Ramdisk, or other things that use up system memory? The buyware version does not take its grafix screen out of system memory, so rarely if ever has the problem you mentioned. Other things that eat up system memory are Pipes and device drivers that are active. Make sure no other procs are active, then start up Umuse, then restart the other procs. Turns out that 6K or RAM has to be contiguous too. Hope you get back into UltiMousing -- mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 8118 S15/Hot Topics 11-Nov-90 13:37:54 Sb: #8068-#MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Hi Mike... Yes, I have a real large bootfile - that's probably the problem... I guess I'll have to spring for the buyware version, but only after you port it to the MM/1. I've ordered one - can't wait! As for UltiMousing, I've got a lot of partly finished projects on the go. I'm still not satisfied with the shareware version's timing. In heavy sections, it still slows down. Also, the percussion parts are still being affected by sharps and flats in other parts. But enough whining, I guess - after all, I didn't pay for it, right? Are you working on a buyware version for MM/1? I am definitely interested. There is 1 Reply. #: 8300 S15/Hot Topics 18-Nov-90 17:48:29 Sb: #8118-#MM/1 Software Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 (X) Hi Glen. Yes all over -- I'm working on an MM/1 port (I have a loaner prototype MM/1). No idea as to price yet. The Coco3 buyware got rid of the problem long ago, where sharps & flats hose up the drummer. Now it even has special Percussion clefs! Timing, hard to say -- I put in Runing Status long ago to cut the data rate, but also recently added Staccato, Marcato, etc, which may slow down the processing some. Real bottleneck is just getting the bytes out. The MM/1 will be a BIG help. Meanwhile, stand by for an amazing piece of Coco3 OS9 shareware -- will say more when it comes up. PS: I'm uploading some good rock scores and a new Jukebox for them tonite. --mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 8308 S15/Hot Topics 18-Nov-90 22:17:08 Sb: #8300-MM/1 Software Fm: GLEN HATHAWAY 71446,166 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Hi Mike... Sounds very interesting... I'll wait patiently. See ya. #: 8071 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 23:39:31 Sb: #7890-OSK Software Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) OK Ed, good message. There is a nationwide (worldwide) Coco mailing list forum out of Princeton U. where we have been discussing many aspects of the OSK grafix interface, at the basic system level, having already decided (like you) to leave the user interfaces for later. Kev Darling is involved in these ongoing discussions, and I think we're getting to the point where we'd like to see the same ideas and standards ported over to your VGA grafix system. We're trying to make it very platform-independent, both for future "KMA" boxes and for backward compat'ly with Atari and Amiga. I got the idea at the Fest that you weren't into the new OSK windowing and grafix "standards", but if you're interested, great! Since Kev is essentially defining the standard, with lots of our input, you should stay in touch with him directly. I think he should write screen drivers for your VGA, and thus be prepared for OS9000 on the 386 PClones. Since both IMS and FHL will be using his grafix system, it seems that what you most need from a "consortium" is to join in the fray with Kevin and see what he's doing/proposing and make your own views known. There's already a sort of consortium -- jump in and get your say. Do you have access on any academic or industrial host machines to BItNet or UUNet or the like? Then you could get on Princeton's net. #: 8072 S15/Hot Topics 07-Nov-90 23:47:52 Sb: #7911-#Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) OK Frank. You cleared up the confusion for me -any K-Bus sytem is a TOmcat even without the new boards. And OK on the prototypes being new and workable. How are you doing with the FCC hassle? I have a loaner of a very early prototype MM/1. It's great, tho part of that stems fromt the included 430M hard drive. I read in and ran the Dynastar upgrade I got from you -- after some diddling with the 3.5" disk descriptors. Yeah, your docs better mention how to DMODE a disk to read your stuff -- there are too many "standards" in the OSK world, grin. I like busses and multi-porocessor systems -- used to design and program them myself for Bell Labs. SO I wish you the best on the TOmcat systems -- I hope you can get the software to really take advantage of your unique hardware capabilities. Maybe I'll end up with a TOmcat too -- always did get good service from you on software and such -- mike k. There are 2 Replies. #: 8080 S15/Hot Topics 08-Nov-90 06:24:22 Sb: #8072-#Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Uh... "430M hard drive"???? Sure that isn't 48M instead? - kev There is 1 Reply. #: 8106 S15/Hot Topics 10-Nov-90 19:26:16 Sb: #8080-Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Well I dunno, Kev -- 430 M will fit in a PC case these days. Tho you can figure Pease wouldn't have loaned me such a jewel :-). Say, howza bout no more proofreading the mail and work on them windows, eh, grins :-) -- mike k #: 8092 S15/Hot Topics 09-Nov-90 22:18:47 Sb: #8072-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, Re you message, >Yeah, your docs better mention how to DMODE a disk >to read your stuff -- there are too many "standards" >in the OSK world, >grin. The DMODE included with the QT and Tomcats has the capability to do things like, 'dmode /d0 coco' which sets /d0 to read coco OS9 disks. Also Atari and Mizar(stdd), Universal (univ), and standard OS9 (std) are supported that way. Of course all the other params can be set too. This is nice if you own one of our machines but if you don't as in your case our documentation on our DMODE would be useless to you. Perhaps now that MW has 'moded' we could add documentation for that. Trying to maintain documentation on apps that run under OSK is like trying to hit a moving target. Prpbably could do it with a readme file on the disk though. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 8107 S15/Hot Topics 10-Nov-90 19:31:55 Sb: #8092-#Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) OK -- I have just plain DMODE, but ama gradually building up shell scripts to zap /st0 and /d1 to various things. Took 1/2 hour last nite at the Coco Club meeting to read somebody's 720 K 3.5" written on their Coco3. Sheesh! Anyway, your disks should include the major parameters on the label -- I have written "typ=0, t0s=10" on your Dynastar disk. PS: The 5.25" disk with Dynastar was totally unreadable on a Coco. Is it one of the many OSK "standards"? If so, maybe the MM/1 can read it (I have a 5.25" hooked up to it, but only DS-40). Thanks for reply, mike k. There is 1 Reply. #: 8163 S15/Hot Topics 12-Nov-90 23:15:03 Sb: #8107-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 (X) Mike, The disks DO have what I consider the 'major' parameters on them. The DynaStar disk (51/4") says on it 'Double Sided, 30 Track, 48 TPI, (30 of 40 Tracks)'. The problem you are having is that it is a 68K disk and uses the 'standard' OSK format that we have used for 6+ years. Microware came up with a numbering system that has no relation to the disk format, ie numbers like 5W03 or some such. They or someone should come up with a system to describe the format without being confusing. The other problem you are having is that you are presuming that your floppy driver is standard Microware fare and this is probably not the case. We have had to provide extensive support in the form of very flexible floppy drivers and a powerful dmode utility to allow our customers to be able to read/write/format ALL the various formats available. Putting the complete format information on the label would require a much bigger label. We need to come up with a uniform way, better than MW's to put on the label. You should be able to read the 68K DynaStar disk on your MM1 as it uses the standard OSK format and is 48 tpi (40 Track). There would be little point in distributing OSK software in CoCo format would there? FHL has always offered our software on whatever format the customer requires at no extra charge. Without notice we distribute it on the 'standard' format for whatever system it is being used on. If you have any trouble reading it on the MM1 let me know, I'm sure we can get it worked out. Frank There are 2 Replies. #: 8167 S15/Hot Topics 13-Nov-90 03:40:25 Sb: #8163-#Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Frank, But MW "standard" has changed, right? That is, are those disks y'all are talking about: single-density track 0? which used to be standard (??) And then, nowadays MW standard is to skip track 0 altogether. I think I still have a 3.5" disk from you that I could never read all these years on my coco, either. I've always figured it was single-density track 0, and that was why I couldn't read it with my standard coco disk driver. Am I close? best - kev There are 2 Replies. #: 8169 S15/Hot Topics 13-Nov-90 07:53:10 Sb: #8167-Fest Fm: Mark S 76004,373 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) A lot of disk controlers can't do single density anymore. And now there are 1.4 meg and 2.8 meg 3.5". And soon to be 6meg. #: 8178 S15/Hot Topics 13-Nov-90 20:58:44 Sb: #8167-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) Kev, The 'universal' format is NOT a standard, it is a 'type' of format that hopefully everyone will be able to support. For a software house a common format to distribute software is important. It doesn't really matter that other formats are used by individual companies as long as at least one common format is supported by everyone. With the advent of many new disk drives with different capabilities and companies trying to get the most out of them this would seem reasonable. MW doesn't force anyone to use any particular format which has caused problems for users. We can support the various formats although I would prefer to only have to deal with one. Mike was the first person that bought a 68K version of software and tried to read it on a CoCo. He only tried this because he doesn't have a 68K machine yet. We have been shipping OSK software on this format for years. Until I know what format you guys are using and what you support how else could I proceed. Frank PS. What formats ARE you using on the MM1? There are 2 Replies. #: 8180 S15/Hot Topics 13-Nov-90 22:30:52 Sb: #8178-Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Frank - dunno, ask the MM/1 guys about their formats! I was just asking about the details on the disk Mike had. That is, are most of the disks you shipped, in a format with all double-density tracks? I _know_ there's lot of different formats out there; I was just curious about the ones you shipped most often. - kev #: 8246 S15/Hot Topics 16-Nov-90 13:30:49 Sb: #8178-Fest Fm: Mike Guzzi 76576,2715 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) ~ Frank, I bought the 68K version of FBU and neither the CoCo nor my MM/1 will read it I did get it to work only because I have SDISK3.3-DMC (No halt version) and used a DISKTYPE command to set my 3.5" to Standard OS9. I then copied the files to a CoCo 3.5" 720K disk and then the MM.1 and the CoCo reads it. The MM/1 in the 720K format uses the CoCo format. Hope that helps out #: 8302 S15/Hot Topics 18-Nov-90 17:57:14 Sb: #8163-#Fest Fm: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) OK Frank, I can see where the stuff wouldn't all fit on the album cover, grin. Let's see ... I read the 3.5" fine after setting Track Zero Offset to 10 and type=0. No success on the 5" disk on Coco, tho may try it on the 48 TPI I put on the MM/1 just to see if it really is bad or not. RIght now I just have to wait for the Term Cap abilities on the MM/1 screen driver to catch up with NASI standards and Dynastar. --mike k There is 1 Reply. #: 8315 S15/Hot Topics 19-Nov-90 01:09:11 Sb: #8302-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Mike Knudsen 72467,1111 Mike, From what Mike Guzzi says the MM1 uses the CoCo format for its disk drives. This is fine as we can supply 68K software in that format. Perh hum that last word was bad and I can't backspace... oh well. Perhaps we should use the universal format for 68K as MW did that so everyone (hah) would support it. Does your MM1 driver for the floppy support other formats? Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 8317 S15/Hot Topics 19-Nov-90 04:23:55 Sb: #8315-#Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Frank, As far as I know, everyone's OSK (and many OS9) drivers can handle almost any format these days. CoCo, ST, MW, hi-density... whatever the floppy chip being used is capable of accessing. I think Mike was (certainly I was) simply wondering about the rest of the details on the format you've been shipping all these years... that is, what was the sector offset and track 0 density? Nothing earthshattering ; and nothing to do with any specific capability; it was just that we two dummies couldn't get our CoCos to read those disks (because we hadn't fully figured them out... which is why he mentioned that perhaps more info might have to be placed on OSK disk labels ... maybe not). best - kev There are 2 Replies. #: 8325 S15/Hot Topics 19-Nov-90 06:23:20 Sb: #8317-Fest Fm: MOTD Editor..Bill Brady 70126,267 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) I for one vote for better disk labeling. As editor I am always getting disks that I cannot figure out how to read. (Some I do, some I don't). #: 8345 S15/Hot Topics 19-Nov-90 22:59:41 Sb: #8317-#Fest Fm: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 To: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 (X) OK here goes from memory. You know when you use the same thing for years you take it for granted. Anyway, trk0=10 trk1...n=16 secoffs=0 trkoffs=0 MFM what else??? guess that's it. This is the old standard format we've used for years. I'll have to find the MW format list, it's over on the MWS sig me thinks, perhaps it would be a good thing for you to post here?? BTW SDisk can read these disks on a coco. Frank There is 1 Reply. #: 8354 S15/Hot Topics 20-Nov-90 18:37:33 Sb: #8345-Fest Fm: Kevin Darling (UG Pres) 76703,4227 To: Frank Hogg of FHL 70310,317 (X) Thanks Frank! Probably our cc3disk drivers couldn't handle the sector offset = 0, altho I thought I'd tried that later with newer coco drivers. The disk list used to be on MSC, but they took it down a while back... I went looking for it just the other week. Yeah, SDisk is good stuff! #: 8097 S15/Hot Topics 10-Nov-90 08:41:10 Sb: #7886-Compatible OSK Machines? Fm: William Phelps 75100,265 To: Ed Gresick 76576,3312 (X) I was looking over your disk format information and I had some thoughts. I am guessing that you used DSQD disks when the 720K drives were tested and DSHD disks when the 1.2M and 1.44M drives were tested. Do you have any test information on these drives using DSDD disks? Have you tried using larger physical sectors; so, drive capacity will match the names? William